|
Post by Mestemia on Aug 18, 2005 10:29:48 GMT -5
I do not believe that God is only love. I believe that God created evil right alongside of Good.
|
|
|
Post by dianaholberg on Aug 18, 2005 10:37:44 GMT -5
Poly, that makes God sound rather human (in the imperfect sense of the word) to me.
Why do you reject the concept of holiness?
|
|
|
Post by freebird on Aug 18, 2005 14:40:30 GMT -5
Diana:
I dont reject the concept of holiness. We are all holy in the love of spirit. The suffering in the world is mostly man made. The natural disasters could be related to humans also in their desecration of Mother Earth. Why kids suffer is a tough one for me. Many suffer because of their parents and abuse. Many suffer in war. The ones who get sick for no apperent reason are the hard ones for me to understand just that death is really a transition and not a permanent ending. Jesus showed us who we really are. Children of God with an indwelling spirit that only needs to be acknowledged to come to life. So did a lot of other prophets and mystics of other faiths.
Freebird
|
|
|
Post by dianaholberg on Aug 18, 2005 21:31:36 GMT -5
I dont reject the concept of holiness. We are all holy in the love of spirit. In one respect I agree with you. But there is a sense in which God is holy as in "unblemished" or "perfect". No matter how many times you repeat "but we are perfect", we know we are not. We err every day. To a certain extent, I agree with you. We have at our disposal knowledge and money and resources sufficient to address much of the suffering in the world. But what is the difference, to you, between saying "the suffering in the world is mostly man made" and saying "the suffering in the world is largely due to man's sin"? Death itself can be viewed that way... but the suffering that often precedes death cannot. People who suffer unspeakable pain must have answers. Saying "God is love and we are God" doesn't give them an answer at all -- so that can't be the whole Truth. You have part of the Truth... all faiths do. Jesus is God -- we can't really be like Him because of that, though He came to be like us. He showed us many things, but I'm beginning to look to Mary to see who we really are. She was not God, but she lived in perfect harmony with God, accepting the bad with the good. Giving her " Fiat!" to His blessings of grace. But they didn't die for our salvation. Jesus showed us the greatest love in laying down His life for us.
|
|
|
Post by PhantomsPandora on Aug 19, 2005 0:23:20 GMT -5
Forgive me, but this is turning into a "does everything have a reason" kind of topic. It's one that is as ..well hard to define as the "chicken and the egg" theory. As for man made suffering it is what it is, even if that seems a bit simplistic. Every cause has an effect and no doubt generations can feel them down the line. We also do not learn the lessons of history. Surely somethings to be learned for that. We can blame suffering on man made things, but the cure to that is breaking those walls down and reaching out to others. But if we do not do that we can only have us, personally to blame.
Christianity and some major religions(my brain isn't what it used to be LOL) hold the appeal that we are never alone. In that place we feel we can give our burdens up, lay them down and have God/Jesus lighten the load. But somehow we miss that message just a tad-because that's one of the big problems in the world today, people take on so much and then just implode. Too afraid to reach out to the divine or our family/best friends.
|
|
|
Post by freebird on Aug 19, 2005 0:35:55 GMT -5
Diana: We obviouly see things differently. We believe in the same God but our understanding of spirit is very different. I am not saying we are perfect people. We do err every day but i dont believe that changes how God feels about his children. You are right people who suffer do want answers. And a lot of the suffering could be alleviated if we worked better as a human race instead of just people from different countries. This planet belongs to us all and i dont believe God will destroy it. We do a good job at destroying it ourselves. You know how i feel about the so called judgement of God. Again i dont live my life to appease some God. That does not work for me. Salvation is not needed. Jesus did not die to save me from anything. He died because the people in charge of that time did not like his message. A blood sacrifice is disgusting in my opinion especially to satisfy some God. No offense intended but i am going to tell you how I feel about it. You are right Jesus was a part of God but so are you and me. We all have the indwelling Christ in us. Whats the big deal about holiness? Jesus walked among the people and sat and ate and drank with whomever he chose to. If there is a God who thinks people are below him/her then i want nothing to do with that God. And the great thing abot that is i dont have too. So Diana , we are not gonna see this the same and to me it doesnt really matter. Your faith works for you and mine works for me. You and i are right where we are supposed to be right now and the possibilities are endless for the future.
I Bless You On Your Path
Freebird
|
|
|
Post by dianaholberg on Aug 19, 2005 3:17:34 GMT -5
I am not saying we are perfect people. We do err every day but i dont believe that changes how God feels about his children. I agree. But that doesn't mean He doesn't like to see us stretch ourselves, use all that He's given us for good, and seek His guidance. Like any good Father. Agreed. But my point was that Catholic faith provides those answers. I'm not saying that to try to convert you... I'm saying it because it's true. I don't believe He is destroying the planet at all. I think that it is (in part) through His children that "the new earth" comes... but I also believe that means it comes through His Church. "Some" God? Or the One True God? Your word against His Word. I'll stick with the latter, thanks. I'm sure there is much about the time of Christ that today we would find "disgusting". That doesn't change history... it doesn't change the Truth. It just means that mankind has developed. Which, I think, is the whole point of there being mankind... so all's right with the world. There is a sense in which we all experience the Holy Spirit... but His indwelling is different from mere experience of Him. You say He indwells you but then you deny His Word... I can't reconcile that, personally, but it's not up to me to do so. He also kept the Sabbath holy, worshipped God at synagogues, and taught the Scriptures. He understood the holiness of God and the importance of setting a reverent example for us. We all have free will and each make our choices. We will each answer for them. God bless, Diana
|
|
|
Post by Mestemia on Aug 19, 2005 10:23:01 GMT -5
Poly, that makes God sound rather human (in the imperfect sense of the word) to me. Why do you reject the concept of holiness? Define holiness. Not the dictionary.com definition, what holiness means to YOU. Perfection is completely subjective. To ME perfect is not about being "all good" it is about being the exact thing needed/neccesary/required. With out evil there would be nothing to compare good to. If there was nothing to compare good to, how would one truely know what is good and what is evil? Therefore, IMHO, evil is a neccessity to having the alleged "perfection" that so many theists seem to require. I suspect your first reply to that question is the Bible, or God. But what of those things not mentioned in the Bible that still exist and affect your life?
|
|
|
Post by dianaholberg on Aug 19, 2005 11:15:25 GMT -5
Define holiness. Not the dictionary.com definition, what holiness means to YOU. You seem to have grasped what I meant: perfection, in the sense of being "all good". Then my assessment that you reject the concept of holiness (as defined above) is accurate. My question to you is, why? This is like saying we cannot have authentic dollar bills without having counterfeit ones. Meanwhile, an authentic dollar bill has no more intrinsic value than a counterfeit one -- both are scraps of paper. I believe God is "all good" and perfect. I don't need to look to a counterfeit to believe that. If evil was gone tomorrow, I would still believe He is "all good", love Him the same, and His love for us would remain unchanged. Evil, like the value assigned to the scraps of paper we call money, is a choice. I think you are asking me my thoughts on evil -- when it impacts my life? I think I recently posted this elsewhere. I believe there are various reasons and sources of what we call "evil". Most of what impacts my life are consequences of my own decisions... but some are the result of others' decisions (those around me). Some are the consequences of my parents' decisions... some of their parents before them. Some are the consequences of those who hold responsibility for our country... some the consequences of those who chose to attack or threaten our country. I could go on and on. This is basically what is meant when we say that we suffer the consequences of sin. I do believe that organized supernatural evil exists. If it did not, I believe there would have been no original sin -- not to mention that we would suffer far fewer temptations. But I also believe evil has no power for those who know how to abide in Christ -- through faith and action -- and call on God for His help.
|
|
|
Post by Tara on Aug 19, 2005 11:17:17 GMT -5
I'm sure there is much about the time of Christ that today we would find "disgusting". That doesn't change history... it doesn't change the Truth. It just means that mankind has developed. Which, I think, is the whole point of there being mankind... so all's right with the world. Evolution?.... ;D I personally don't think that spirituality is supposed to be as easy as having a book that tell syou all the answers flat out. I think a lot of searching is supposed to be involved. But that path could very well be for me and not you. I think some people completely give up their search and instead of walking and watching where they're going on their spiritual raod, they get themselves a cane when they don't need one.
|
|
|
Post by dianaholberg on Aug 19, 2005 11:19:23 GMT -5
I agree, Tara. That's why the Bible alone provides only some of the guidance we need.
I believe we come into the world spiritually just as we do physically -- as children. Some develop more quickly than others, but all need the guidance of good parents -- and can benefit from that throughout their lives. For Catholics, our Father is God and our Mother is the Church.
|
|
|
Post by freebird on Aug 19, 2005 16:00:18 GMT -5
Diana:
How we can we discuss spirituality when you keep mentioning the one true God. What's up with that? I do believe we are talking about the same God just different perceptions of what this God means to each of us. I am beginning to think that God is undefinable. I sense and feel a presence so the spirit is real to me but hard to grasp intellectually,which could be one of the problems. I think if we are going to continue to dialoge then we need to come from a different approach. I am not asking you to believe anything other than what you believe now just try and help make this dialoge evolve for lack of a better word.
Freebird
|
|
|
Post by dianaholberg on Aug 19, 2005 18:45:10 GMT -5
Freebird, if the condition of my dialoguing here was that I must stop referring to the One True God as the One True God, then I would not be here. That is what I believe. Why do you have so much difficulty respecting that?
You ask me to respect your beliefs, but time and again dismiss mine as limited, unfair, and somehow less than yours. I don't deny you the right to think that, or even to express it. I don't attack your beliefs -- I only express my own. They just happen to often be the opposite of what you say... and since we both seem pretty well rooted, I don't expect that to change.
|
|
|
Post by Mestemia on Aug 19, 2005 22:09:38 GMT -5
It seems to me that you are using the word 'perfect' as a synonym for the phrase "absolute good". Do we really need to re-open THAT[/i] can of worms? What I was actually refering to was not your thoughts on evil but on dealing with evils not specified in the Bible. This is like saying we cannot have authentic dollar bills without having counterfeit ones. Meanwhile, an authentic dollar bill has no more intrinsic value than a counterfeit one -- both are scraps of paper. Really? So we can have light without dark? You present this counterfiet money analogy without seeing the most obvious flaw with bringing it up. A counterfiet bill is not the opposite of a real bill. Evil is the direct opposite of good. Light is the direct opposite of dark. Hopefully you are able to see the difference and can see why your counterfiet money analogy does not apply. I can only have faith that you can see the difference.
|
|
|
Post by Tigress on Aug 20, 2005 4:11:11 GMT -5
We are not God -- we are not perfect. We are not holy -- we make mistakes, and many of us routinely do the wrong thing on purpose. I don't think s/he meant that we are God or gods. That would certainly be true for someone who believes that God is [extremely] meticulous, I think."It is my belief that in the Presence of God there is neither male nor female, white nor black, Gentile nor Jew, Protestant nor Catholic, Hindu, Buddhist, nor Moslem, but a human spirit stripped to the literal substance of itself before God." (Howard Thurman, 'Creative Encounter') I like this quote.
I'm seeing a lot of 'God is all good' and also mentions of 'holiness.' This makes me laugh because I honestly don't see how we can attribute these things to God without clearly defining them first (as individuals). Now, am I wrong to assume that you both, diana and freebird, have differing opinions concerning what 'good' is and what 'holiness' is? Diana, you cannot expect freebird or anyone else here to 'live up to' your idea of holiness. So asking if s/he rejects 'the idea' of holiness isn't enough because there is no the idea. Perhaps I missed it, but maybe difining what holiness is to you would help the discussion. Such definitions differ even among Christians themselves. This actually goes out to everyone. Even though we are all guilty of it, will be gulity of it in the future and though I, myself, am most certainly guilty of it, we must remember not to expect people to see things the way we do.
|
|