robl
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It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Posts: 185
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Post by robl on Feb 4, 2009 18:52:36 GMT -5
i would say yes God's desire is that none perish. But all to come everlasting life. So yes he desires us all to be his children. But it is your choice in the matter. And you have to do it his way. But it is also true that in order for us to become his children(as is his desire for all)then you must be born again. Born of the Spirit and not of the flesh.
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Post by dianaholberg on Feb 4, 2009 19:11:22 GMT -5
Actually, what the Bible says is "born of water and the Spirit".
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jedivelariuskenobi
Guide
All life is one energy, therefore, there is no i only we, and compassion then must follow
Posts: 252
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Post by jedivelariuskenobi on Feb 4, 2009 22:46:06 GMT -5
Diana i just wanted to say that your patience and understanding even in the face of disagreement gives me great hope for the world. It is becuase there is a tendency against this in Christian Churches in general that partly turns me off to them. I am a big believer in each of us finding our own way to God even if this means difficulty and sin along the way, and even though we may not agree i feel that we still have the love of God binding us together.
Thanks Again
Jedi Velarius
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Post by dianaholberg on Feb 5, 2009 6:31:40 GMT -5
Jedi... ditto -- back atcha
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robl
Guide
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Posts: 185
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Post by robl on Feb 6, 2009 19:59:00 GMT -5
John 1:12-13 KJV But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 3:5-8 KJV Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Water is not literal(as to say you are literally born out of water)but shows a cleansing that comes with a new nature by being born of the Spirit. Because the Holy Spirit is oft times shown as water. Springs of living water in another place in the Gospel of John is used to signify the Holy Spirit. So we can clearly see that in order to be saved. In order to go to heaven you must be born again. That is to become a child of God you must be born of the Spirit. And this intales being washed in the blood of the Son of God and this causes a new birth(being born of the Spirit of God)thereby making us the sons and daughters of the Almighty.
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Post by Mestemia on Feb 6, 2009 21:06:30 GMT -5
Water is not literal(as to say you are literally born out of water)but shows a cleansing that comes with a new nature by being born of the Spirit. Because the Holy Spirit is oft times shown as water. Springs of living water in another place in the Gospel of John is used to signify the Holy Spirit. So we can clearly see that in order to be saved. In order to go to heaven you must be born again. That is to become a child of God you must be born of the Spirit. And this intales being washed in the blood of the Son of God and this causes a new birth(being born of the Spirit of God)thereby making us the sons and daughters of the Almighty. That is certainly ONE way to interpret it. Now all you needs do is prove that that is the one and only true interpretation.
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robl
Guide
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Posts: 185
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Post by robl on Feb 6, 2009 22:36:16 GMT -5
Scripture must be read in its proper context. So if yo read this in its proper context it is quite obvious he is speaking of a new nature. Not a nature of the flesh but rather of the Spirit. Hence being born of the Spirit. Do not try to stretch hidden meanings out of the scriptures. Because that is where false doctrines and heresies come from.
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Post by Mestemia on Feb 7, 2009 9:25:14 GMT -5
So how do you know that what you came up with is the "one and only interpretation?" For example: Is the person who can present the most verses correct?
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Post by dianaholberg on Feb 7, 2009 9:39:34 GMT -5
Robl, it is you who have let the divisions in Scripture dictate context to you. If you drop the chapter divisions, you will see the broader context of John 3. For example, just prior to the discussion with Nicodemus there is the miracle of Cana and the cleansing of the Temple. In the miracle of Cana, the water (representing the waters of Baptism) is turned to wine (representing the blood of Christ). Similarly, the cleansing of the Temple is a literal cleaning out -- not figurative at all. These events lead up to the discussion with Nicodemus about the need to be born "of water and the Spirit". If water was a literal device refering to the Spirit, it would just say "born of water" or "born of the Spirit" -- but it doesn't. It says both for the specific reason that we are to be reborn in Baptism. Immediately following this discussion of Baptism, we find this passage: John 3:22-24
After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing. 23 John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there; and people were coming and were being baptized — 24 for John had not yet been thrown into prison. This is as clear a reference to Baptism as you can get. If Protestant scholars had not broken verses 21-22 there would be a flow of ideas here as was intended.
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robl
Guide
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Posts: 185
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Post by robl on Feb 8, 2009 19:11:27 GMT -5
First yo must understand the symbolism of what baptism is. It is not a means for salvation. It is a command of the Lord Jesus. And so we do it after having made the choice to be saved. To baptize means to be emersed fully into something. the person is emersed fully into the water(showing the emersion and death of the old self. And the coming out of the water signifies the rising of the new man with the Lord Jesus). It is a symbol physically of what has already happened spiritually. You can be baptized to appease your conscience and still die and go to hell because there was never that inward change of heart mind and soul. Jesus also said that He would give to the woman at the well a fountain of living waters. That if she drank of the water he gave her she would never thirst again. If this literal? Or is he speaking of her spiritual thirst. And is he saying for her to be baptized to be saved? No he is saying that he offers perfect satisfaction. And if you take the water turned to wine at Cana to mean the blood of Christ. Then you must washed in the blood and not normal everyday water. Again this is spiritual.
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Post by dianaholberg on Feb 8, 2009 19:59:57 GMT -5
First yo must understand the symbolism of what baptism is. It is not a means for salvation. It is a command of the Lord Jesus. And so we do it after having made the choice to be saved. To baptize means to be emersed fully into something. the person is emersed fully into the water(showing the emersion and death of the old self. And the coming out of the water signifies the rising of the new man with the Lord Jesus). It is a symbol physically of what has already happened spiritually. Where have you gotten all of this? Because it certainly isn't from the Bible. As a matter of fact, the Bible says the opposite: 1 Peter 3:18-22 18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you [/u] — not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience — through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.[/blockquote]This is a literal passage: Noah's ark literally saved 8 people; baptism literally saves us. This is certainly true -- if one sins mortally after Baptism, one certainly may lose heaven. The water He is referring to in that passage is the Holy Spirit. Baptism is by water and Spirit. What do you think baptism is, if not the washing away of sin by the blood of Christ and the Holy Spirit? Again, this is what the Bible says: Acts 22:12-16
12 "A certain Ananias, a man who was devout by the standard of the Law, and well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there, 13 came to me, and standing near said to me, ' Brother Saul, receive your sight!' And at that very time I looked up at him. 14 "And he said, ' The God of our fathers has appointed you to know His will and to see the Righteous One and to hear an utterance from His mouth. 15'For you will be a witness for Him to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16'Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.' [/u][/blockquote]And: 1 John 5:6-8 6 This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. It sounds as though you would drop the water out of this verse, leaving only two in agreement!
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