Immigration ideas.

[calyrelf]

doug said:

I realise this is focusing on the American immigration issue, but the themes being explored here are of relevance to any western country and I only wanted to pick up on one point.

While I agree with the general consensus ( IE those emigrating to a new land should respect that land) I really have to disagree with the idea that the second an immigrant criticises their adoptive country they should just go home. What if the critisicm is a valid one? You talk about the need for diversity but refuse to accept the consequences of that diversity - that people will compare their experiences and raise questions about "the other way of doing things." You are asking certain groups to stay silent on issues that affect them and I don't understand why. Whether a person is an immigrant or a native to the country they live in they are as equally affected by the state of that country and how it is run. For example, fully fledged legal immigrants pay the same rate of tax and are governed by the same laws of the land as every one else therefore they have equal right to raise any legitimate concerns. When did it become illegal to say what you think? When did the western world start governing what people could or could not talk about?

I apologize if I came across that way....it was certainly not my intention. The only way for this country to change for the better is for people to have the courage to stand up and say what they don't agree with. People who come here and live here for a while, getting to know the country and the reasons behind the way things operate here have every right to try to change the government, improve it, and become a part of good solutions.

What I have a problem with, however, are those people who don't care to learn why we do things the way we do.....they see something done differently and immediately criticize it without taking the time to find out why things are different here. And as far as my BIL, who insisted that half of the "garbage" that Americans like to eat should be thrown out of every supermarket in America and replaced with the food that he thinks should be eaten, that is just plain bigoted.

I do feel that immigrants should get to know the country before immediately finding fault with it. If they don't want to bother to get to know the country....to be a true part of it, and learn to understand it so that they can see where changes are truly needed, and work to improve it, then they really shouldn't immigrate to this country, in my humble opinion.

It kind of reminds me of my fellow Americans, who move to the Arizona desert from places like Illinois and New York. Well, they come here KNOWING that it is a desert, but what do they do? They buy seedlings and plants that they are familiar with from back east, and then waste a TON OF precious water trying to keep those plants alive, and then they complain when their garden doesn't grow exactly the same way that it did back east. You have no idea (or maybe you do) how much hotter and more humid the American southwest is now that all of these non-native plants have been planted, and raised the humidity of the area. Our climate is changing for the worse, and our resources are being used up much more rapidly than they should have been.

In a way, I see the immigration problem in a similar light.

[calyrelf]

and by the way, since we are all immigrants (except the Indians, and even them too if you want to go back to the last Ice Age) I certainly don't mean that all immigrants are a problem. I believe that most are not, but the few who are stick out like a sore thumb and give the populace an unfortunate opinion of immigrants.

[doug]

Hi Calyref,

Well thanks for putting me right. I think I'm just used to hearing so many of those people who consider that many immigrants as problems simply for being immigrants rather than consider anything about them...I know little of desert climates though-Britain isn't really known for its balmy sunkissed weather!

[cenk]

I just want to say the following:

The vast majority of Americans are descended from immigrants.

Your ancestors came to the USA for reasons such as better economic opportunities, more religious freedom, to escape persecution and also for their political beliefs, etc...

Your ancestors then dominate the north American continent by appropriating land from and massacring the natives of that land.

Then you give these natives artificial names like Mexicans (who really are descended from Aztec, Mayan and many other tribes).

Then through dominance most of the languages spoken by these natives for millennia are replaced by Spanish.

Then when these Spanish speaking "Mexicans" want to travel north to look for work, to escape persecution, for religious freedom, etc... They are de-humanised for doing so by people whose very own ancestors left their home lands for the same reasons as these Mexicans do.

Shame on you all.

[Mestemia]

cenk said:

I just want to say the following:

The vast majority of Americans are descended from immigrants.

Your ancestors came to the USA for reasons such as better economic opportunities, more religious freedom, to escape persecution and also for their political beliefs, etc...

Your ancestors then dominate the north American continent by appropriating land from and massacring the natives of that land.

Then you give these natives artificial names like Mexicans (who really are descended from Aztec, Mayan and many other tribes).

Then through dominance most of the languages spoken by these natives for millennia are replaced by Spanish.

Then when these Spanish speaking "Mexicans" want to travel north to look for work, to escape persecution, for religious freedom, etc... They are de-humanised for doing so by people whose very own ancestors left their home lands for the same reasons as these Mexicans do.

Shame on you all.

Um...
Not my ancestors.
They did not get to America until till the late 1940's.
However, when they got here, they went through the proper channels and all the red tape.
Besides which, what does your rant have to do with the current illegal immigration situation in America?

[dianaholberg]

cenk said:

I just want to say the following:

The vast majority of Americans are descended from immigrants.

True. Immigrants who, for the most part, went through the due process of gaining citizenship. If something is worth having, it's worth striving for.

Your ancestors came to the USA for reasons such as better economic opportunities, more religious freedom, to escape persecution and also for their political beliefs, etc...

Or to escape prosecution... ;D

Your ancestors then dominate the north American continent by appropriating land from and massacring the natives of that land.

Most countries gaining power did the same. America is in no way unique in this respect.

Then you give these natives artificial names like Mexicans (who really are descended from Aztec, Mayan and many other tribes).

I don't know what history book you're reading. The Mayans mostly died of diseases brought by Spaniards. Spain also conquered the Aztecs. And Mexico is a derivative of Mexica -- the name the Aztecs chose for themselves when they migrated after the decline of the Toltec civilization.

It really doesn't accomplish anything to try to re-write history.

Then through dominance most of the languages spoken by these natives for millennia are replaced by Spanish.

And you hold Americans responsible for this... why???

Then when these Spanish speaking "Mexicans" want to travel north to look for work, to escape persecution, for religious freedom, etc... They are de-humanised for doing so by people whose very own ancestors left their home lands for the same reasons as these Mexicans do.

Shame on you all.

What is dehumanizing about asking people who want to be citizens to demonstrate their willingness to be law-abiding by following the procedure required of every immigrant?

[teancum79]

Cenk as you may have missed the term illegal. As far as I know all of my ancestors came to this country legally. They did not sneak past the guards, threaten law suits if they got caught and they certainly where not trafficking in drugs or prostitution.

Legal immigration is vital to the US. uncontrolled illegal immigration however will turn the US into a 3rd world disaster in a few generations.

I don't know of any nation that welcomes millions of invaders with open arms. If there was one they did not last for long.

[robl]

I agree with teancum. We need to do something about this illegal problem. I love immegrants. Thats what makes America the best place in the world to live. But if they come here illegally and push drugs and sex and gangs, then I say we do whatever it takes to get rid of them. Im tired of the demoralization of this blessed land by people who dont care about its beuty and freedom.