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Post by teancum79 on Jun 9, 2007 10:03:32 GMT -5
In light of the most recent fight in congress over immigration and the continuing problems connected with it I thought I'd see what everyone thought.
My dad e-mailed me this:
"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."
-Theodore Roosevelt 1907
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Post by Amalcas on Jun 9, 2007 15:09:42 GMT -5
I believe an...extreme...version of that belief is the source of much antagonism in the current immigration debate. However, the debate is meaningful; something does need to be done. Admittedly, there are extremists on the other end, and that has resulted in the current unusual compromise bill; instead of largely finding a middle ground, it has simply catered half to each extreme. The only potentially good major change I see in the bill is the institution of a points system; however, I am more than unsure about the proposed manner of institution.
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jedivelariuskenobi
Guide
All life is one energy, therefore, there is no i only we, and compassion then must follow
Posts: 252
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Post by jedivelariuskenobi on Jun 9, 2007 21:48:59 GMT -5
“All the problems we face in the United States today can be traced to an unenlightened immigration policy on the part of the American Indian”
Pat Paulsen
That being said, i think that we need to remember the conditions that cause this illegal immigration. We need to make it easier for immigrants to come legally, and make sure they get minimum wage when they get here. No matter what happens they are still going to come, why not do it humanely. I'm in solidarity with the immigrants against oppression.
May the Force Guide You,
Jedi Velarius Kenobi
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Post by teancum79 on Jun 10, 2007 15:35:20 GMT -5
I'm all for large scale legal immigration as long as it does not hurt the economy or national security. I have a few problems with the massive illegal immigration. 1. It creates a subculture that is less likely to deal with things through the legal means.
2. It creates a permanent underclass which can be exploited.
3. Many, 20% was the percentage I heard on the Radio a few weeks back, are not hard working honest people. They are criminals who are looking to exploit any and all they can.
4. Some try to make any enforcement of law on a person from south of the border into a racial persecution issue. Race should not be a factor people being subject to the laws.
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Post by Amalcas on Jun 10, 2007 16:22:47 GMT -5
I agree with your analysis of the situation; any immigration system must ultimately allow for significant immigration, or a significant immigrant worker program. Otherwise, the problems Teancum detailed are essentially inevitable; its well established that the means necessary to forcibly curtail illegal immigration are certainly prohibitive in either cost or impracticality.
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Post by calyrelf on Jun 12, 2007 11:41:48 GMT -5
I'm all for large scale legal immigration as long as it does not hurt the economy or national security. I have a few problems with the massive illegal immigration. 1. It creates a subculture that is less likely to deal with things through the legal means. 2. It creates a permanent underclass which can be exploited. 3. Many, 20% was the percentage I heard on the Radio a few weeks back, are not hard working honest people. They are criminals who are looking to exploit any and all they can. 4. Some try to make any enforcement of law on a person from south of the border into a racial persecution issue. Race should not be a factor people being subject to the laws. I agree with you there, on all points, actually, although I think the 20% is a tad high. Immigration policies have to address these issues while opening up our borders to more legal immigration and discouraging the illegal kind, which drains our tax-paid resources and cheats the government of taxes to pay for those resources, like ER's and schools. When my brother in law immigrated from Germany over 20 years ago, he could not get legal status. So he simply came as a tourist and "disappeared" into the woodwork, being paid under the table for his work as a machinist. After two years, he was so sick of living in hiding that he actually told the government that he was working in the US. He was certain he would be deported, but for some inexplicable reason, he was given a green card with almost no questions asked. I tend to wonder if that would have happened if he was here from Mexico, and the inequity of that question makes me upset. Why SHOULDN'T people from Mexico be treated with the same regard? Yet, on the other hand, when I was very young....about 25 years ago, I was a teenaged mom and strapped for cash. I went to the welfare office to apply. The worker stunned me when she commented, in a whisper, "It's too bad you don't have Garcia or Reyes as your last name. I think I could have helped you. I'm really sorry." I could NOT BELIEVE that she would say that to me. There are inequities on both sides of the issue. More legal immigration allowances, but with strict guidelines, would help alleviate these, in my humble opinion.
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Post by Amalcas on Jun 12, 2007 16:19:50 GMT -5
I've heard there was a lot of discrimination along those lines about that long ago. I have a neighbor who has a Hispanic last name, from her husband, and she once told me how she learned, after her child had gone through elementary school, that her child had been pulled out for ESOL (English as a Second Language, or something like that); however, all they did was "play Spanish halloween boardgames." This selection was based entirely on the child's last name; to my knowledge, she does not even speak Spanish, and I'm not sure her father did either. I don't know if the same sort of thing happens now, though I do know ESOL has been cleaned up, at least in my county/state, incidentally largely due to the efforts of my currently stepping-down principal.
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robl
Guide
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Posts: 185
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Post by robl on Jun 12, 2007 21:47:17 GMT -5
if you are in illegal immigrant then you ought to be deported no questions asked. Too many drugs are smugled over the boarder to be allowing any kind of illegal amnesty at all. Ship em all outta here and make room for those who wish to be here legally. To pledge undivided loyalty to this awesome great and God fearing country. If any man brakes the law he ought to be punished. We ought not allow certain types of people into our boarders. Like convicted felons, or women of bad repute(for you that dont know that means hookers), or the mentaly handicap or those with serious medical condetions. The reason for this is we ought not take on other counrties burdens for them. They ought to deal with such people themselfs. We have our own to deal with. And we have a hard enough time just doing that. So this may seam intolerant to others to most of yall. But in 1902 thats how thing were and we sure didnt have the same problem with illegals then as we do today. Crime was also lower back then.
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Post by teancum79 on Jun 13, 2007 8:31:42 GMT -5
Rob, I'm going to disagree with you on the handicapped part. I don't think we should exclude a person from this nation on that factor alone. Many people with a handicap are able to work and make a lot of other positive contributions to society. (Side note I don't include self imposed disease such as drug addictions in this). A policy that requires them to go without government support for a year or five years would minimize the negative impact they could have on us.
In the case of disease however I think we need some very strict laws. Our society does not need a pandemic of anything and there are a lot of diseases that could be brought in by illegals. Somewhat like Cortez's man with small pox it only takes one.
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jedivelariuskenobi
Guide
All life is one energy, therefore, there is no i only we, and compassion then must follow
Posts: 252
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Post by jedivelariuskenobi on Jun 13, 2007 11:10:16 GMT -5
To pledge undivided loyalty to this awesome great and God fearing country. This sounds like assimilation to me. I don't think there is any reason to force immigrants to give up thier own culture just to live here. That used to be part of the belief back in the day and now look at America, its a huge, giant, black hole of culture. As for undivided loyalty i know that I and many other Americans don't even have that. Sounds like your remembering good old days that never existed. May the Force Guide You Love and Light Jedi Velarius Kenobi
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Post by teancum79 on Jun 13, 2007 18:37:39 GMT -5
Many do remember the past in a very good light, but the divided loyalties that are common today are a major problem. If someone does not respect the laws of the land in which they live why should they be allowed to live there?
I'm fine with anyone who wants to keep their traditions (as long as they don't conflict with the law), but when people insist that we learn their language and that we pay for their health care and many other expenses when they themselves do not abide our laws I must take great issue.
If those coming to this country felt a loyalty to it they would be more inclined to respect its laws, play by the rules and even go out of their way to support themselves. We have far to many who want to let the government take care of them as it is we don't need to import anymore.
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Post by calyrelf on Jun 14, 2007 10:14:29 GMT -5
Respect on both sides is the key, and understanding on the part of the immigrants is the key as well. When a person comes to this country, they should realize that they are not only gaining their objective, but they are taking on a responsibility as well. They are coming HERE.....which means that they should be willing to adopt this country as their own, just as they are hoping this country will adopt them as its own. They need to accept that it isn't going to be like home....if they want it to be, then they should stay home.
Yes, they may practice their traditions and maintain their culture, (and I believe that everyone is better off in having that diversity) but they have to realize that they must do so within the context of OUR culture, and not interfere with the enjoyment of others to maintain their own traditions and culture.
When people come here, it is not US that have to adapt to THEM....well not as much, anyway. It's the other way around. We must be tolerant of their practices, and welcome them and allow them the freedom to be themselves. That's a given. But they must also accept our framework in which to find their niche....not try to tear down our framework and create another that is more like the one they remember.
I was speaking earlier of my BIL. When he first came to America, everything was wonderful, and he was crazy about it. But then things started peppering his language, such as "That's not the way the government operates in Germany." and "American food is lousy. They should get rid of half the items in the grocers and bring in some good imported meats, breads and cheeses." I told him that if he felt that way, he should have stayed in Germany. Sure, he has a right to ask the store to carry the items he likes, and I think they should accommodate immigrants, but to say that the store should get rid of OUR stuff simply because he doesn't like it....that's the attitude that I take issue with.
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doug
Student
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Post by doug on Jun 14, 2007 11:50:45 GMT -5
I realise this is focusing on the American immigration issue, but the themes being explored here are of relevance to any western country and I only wanted to pick up on one point.
While I agree with the general consensus ( IE those emigrating to a new land should respect that land) I really have to disagree with the idea that the second an immigrant criticises their adoptive country they should just go home. What if the critisicm is a valid one? You talk about the need for diversity but refuse to accept the consequences of that diversity - that people will compare their experiences and raise questions about "the other way of doing things." You are asking certain groups to stay silent on issues that affect them and I don't understand why. Whether a person is an immigrant or a native to the country they live in they are as equally affected by the state of that country and how it is run. For example, fully fledged legal immigrants pay the same rate of tax and are governed by the same laws of the land as every one else therefore they have equal right to raise any legitimate concerns. When did it become illegal to say what you think? When did the western world start governing what people could or could not talk about?
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robl
Guide
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Posts: 185
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Post by robl on Jun 15, 2007 0:44:28 GMT -5
ooh I know I figured it out. If you dont like it here then leave. If you want so badly to live here then do it legally. Part of the reason(well the main reason really)that I cant stand illegals one little bit is this. In jumping the boarder to come over here they undermind the autherities in this country. They therefore are criminals and diserve to be thrown in prison. But sence the prison are already full of drug dealers and gang bangers(worthless scum should be left behind bars til they rot)we should just send them home and make it harder for them to ever jump the boarder again. Like allow boarder control to shoot them on sight. And then thatll make less of the illegals able to come over and allow more room for the legals to come on in and enjoy what they have worked so hard for.
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jedivelariuskenobi
Guide
All life is one energy, therefore, there is no i only we, and compassion then must follow
Posts: 252
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Post by jedivelariuskenobi on Jun 15, 2007 0:57:05 GMT -5
ooh I know I figured it out. If you dont like it here then leave. If you want so badly to live here then do it legally. Part of the reason(well the main reason really)that I cant stand illegals one little bit is this. In jumping the boarder to come over here they undermind the autherities in this country. They therefore are criminals and diserve to be thrown in prison. But sence the prison are already full of drug dealers and gang bangers(worthless scum should be left behind bars til they rot)we should just send them home and make it harder for them to ever jump the boarder again. Like allow boarder control to shoot them on sight. And then thatll make less of the illegals able to come over and allow more room for the legals to come on in and enjoy what they have worked so hard for. Wow ....... I'm not even sure how to respond to that ..... that entire post but especially the shoot people on site part, just filled me with pity .... i don't understand how someone can claim to be religious or spiritual and suggest that ... with Peace, Jedi Velarius Kenobi
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