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Post by Tara on Oct 6, 2005 15:20:00 GMT -5
It was just a general comment since the topic was brought up. If I were addressing you, I would either quote you or call you by name.
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Post by littlepea on Oct 15, 2005 19:08:10 GMT -5
i heard something on the radio about the slaves freed after the american civil war and that they were promised freedom and land if they fought for either side (both sides offered similar deals, but of course the americans won). the land that was given to them was poor quality, unfarmable land (eg. they had massive boulders all over it which they couldn't move) in harsh climates (ie. canada). so even the ones that did get their land didn't get anything of use ... and lets not forget the practical genocide committed by the english during the highland clearances, cenk ... and people wonder why hardly anyone speaks gaelic any more ... there were also plenty of unreported massacres which the english inflicted on the scots as recently as the 19th century. some were reported to the extent that you can only just find out something about them these days if you search very very hard (i know because i read of a massacre that took place in my home town around 1820 - there was some kind of riot and the army shot a load of unarmed men, women and children) ... how many went completely unreported so that they are forgotten? i guess we'll never know ... also there were all the countless atrocities inflicted upon the irish by the british army right up until the 1990s ... no wonder the IRA decided to take action. and this is just concerning the home nations - at one point britain ruled the world, cenk, and you can be sure we weren't very polite about it, so don't go thinking that we're any better than america (not that you were, i'm just reminding you). our country has a more bloody history than america could possibly have even if they kept up their current "world-police" policy for the next 100 years ... just think: india, australia, hong kong, south africa etc. ... fortunately foreigners tend to see britain as "england", so when asked where i'm from and i say "scotland" i'm universally welcomed i can't justify the $8m for a victim of the lockerbie bombing while the iraqi woman only gets $1000 for the deaths of her 9 children, but i'm sure it was more political than pure racism. the US probably leaned on Libya to give them anything they wanted or else they would be in real trouble - so they paid off the families and offered a scapegoat (who is now serving his time in my local prison back home, believe it or not) and avoided severely bad relations, if not all out war. meanwhile what's really going to happen if the US don't pay a cent to the Iraqi woman? nothing at all, i'm sure, and $1000 could probably go a lot further in Iraq than it would in New York ... i'm not defending it, i'm just saying that's probably how it came about.
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Post by Tara on Oct 15, 2005 21:57:34 GMT -5
Why do you think the English did so much damage that was so widespread? (litterally all over the world)
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Post by cenk on Oct 16, 2005 5:32:04 GMT -5
littlepea crying genocide is serious accusation to be making. I'm just wondering why the Scotish government aren't even mentioning it. I have only heard of this from you no one else. Its like Armenia accusing Turkey of Genocide. I do however know about the attrocities commited by the English in Ireland. Also that England didn't help during the Irish potato famine in 1845. Which is a reason for the high Irish population in the USA may I add. I know about the attrocities commited by the English in India and Africa. Also it was not just the English it was other western Europeans. The spanish kicked and slaughtered out the Moors(muslims) and Jews in the inquisition. The tiny little country called Belgium (i hope you heard of it) they too had a empire they owned Congo well anyways the king (I think he was called king Leopold II, not 100% sure) said for every bullet used bring me the right hand of a Congan. Estimates put the total deaths of the Congolese at the hands of the Belgiums at upto 2,000,000. The Spanish and Portuguese in South America massacred and killed many Natives off. Basically the countries that owned collonies in Africa committed unexcusable atrocities. It was not just the English. Within the last 100 years there have been many instances of Mass murder that if the Scottish Genocide is true it wouldn't even come near to what some people had to endure. How about Stalin he killed 10's of millions of people. Theres the Genocide in Rwanda - I know it had nothing to do with white people but it doesn't excuse Europe and America sitting back watching it all, selling them weapons. Lets not forget that today it is the USA that is committing the worst attrocities. Due to American sanctions an estimated 1.5 Million Iraqis have died. archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/09/18/vic.terror.iraq/index.htmlFor the Iraqis the pain is not ending its still going on everyday. The picture I'm trying to draw is that it wasn't just the English it was also the French, Spanish, Belgiums, Germans, Serbians, Croatians, Russians, etc.... But I conclude that the White man has been the biggest committer of genocide and indiscriminate crimes against humanity for a long time and will unfortunately in this day and age it appears will carry on doing so for the unforeable future.
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Post by cenk on Oct 16, 2005 5:40:56 GMT -5
Why do you think the English did so much damage that was so widespread? (litterally all over the world) I think in those days England was on top of the world(and they were, they had an enormous empire.) They had the best navy in the world they were the bigest superpower up until the emergence of Germany and the USA in the later halve of the 19th century. The reasons I think they did those crimes against humanity is because they thought they could get away with it (also perhaps Racism played a part I dont know). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:British_Empire_Anachronous_2.PNG[Why cant I put certain links in properly, is there some online help thingy that will show me how to insert links in properly.]
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Post by Tara on Oct 16, 2005 8:48:51 GMT -5
But wasn't Egypt considered the "Top of the World" at one point waaaaaay back in the day?
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Post by dianaholberg on Oct 16, 2005 9:12:40 GMT -5
cenk,
Here's how you put in a link (replace the {} with []):
{url=http://...etc.}Name of web site{/url}
Every now and then you may still have a problem, but if you do it this way it will work most of the time.
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Post by littlepea on Oct 16, 2005 9:26:24 GMT -5
the british empire was by far bigger than any of the others but i know it isn't just the English who have a bloody history, i was just reminding you because you are English that your history is bloodier than anything the US is doing today. that doesn't excuse them either, i was just reminding you not to look down on them as being so evil considering your history. i said the highland clearances were practically a genocide - they killed off the highland culture (they all spoke gaelic and were looked down on as a lesser species). genocide doesn't just mean killing off all people of a certain race, it can mean killing off a culture too (since obviously the highlanders were people like you and me but they spoke gaelic and had their own culture, yet who would disagree that they were an ethnic minority?). have you never heard of the highland clearances before? that's one reason there are so many people of scottish descent in North America (approximately 30 million Americans have Scottish ancestors, lots of Canadians have Scottish ancestry too). you didn't have to kill 10s of millions of people to commit genocide: by booting all the highlanders out of the highlands you forced them to join the rest of society, speak english and foget their roots. in other words you rid the world of highlanders. well done, england, another genocide to add to your bloody history. i'm honestly shocked that you have never heard of the highland clearances. it's not widely talked about these days, but it's not ignored or forgotten. the massacre in 1820 in my home town, however, is widely ignored and almost forgotten ... but it shouldn't be (have a search on google for "Greenock +1820 massacre") the reason the government aren't making a big deal about it is because it's a Labour government and they want us to remain dependant on England. i wouldn't be surprised if they were intentionally governing us badly to make it seem like we couldn't survive on our own and halt nationalism before it even enters our minds. obviously a government that wants to promote dependance would not make a big deal about how England have screwed us over for our entire history and we owe them nothing, don't you think? here's a wee story for you (and it's completely true, you can look into it if you want). in a town in the northeast called Stonehaven they were celebrating a day to commemorate William Wallace, and fittingly there was a Saltire flying over the town hall. the Stonehaven South councillor, however, comes along and takes it down to replace it with a Union Jack, much to the dislike of the people of Stonehaven. click here to read a reportmeanwhile i know of someone personally who was sent to jail for 60 days for non-payment of a fine for doing something similar. he was one of a few men caught removing a union jack from a civic building during the G8 summit and he replaced it with a saltire. he was fined £750 and given 6 weeks to pay it. since he didn't he was given 60 days in jail. does that seem fair to you? i mean, ok, if you follow the letter of the law it may have been correct to let the coucillor replace the flag but not allow the protestor to replace the flag, but come on, morally, does that seem right to you? on a day to commemorate william wallace (a national hero) obviously a scottish saltire should be flying ... the G8 summit was held in scotland so they should be flying a saltire, right?
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Post by cenk on Oct 16, 2005 11:52:40 GMT -5
[Littlepea I dont have a computer and the Library is closing so I will have to read and respond to your post another day]
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Post by cenk on Oct 17, 2005 8:55:00 GMT -5
i was just reminding you because you are English that your history is bloodier than anything the US is doing today. that doesn't excuse them either, i was just reminding you not to look down on them as being so evil considering your history. NO! littlepea I am not English. I am British. I don't have ANY English blood in me. Its not MY history. According to some English people I am a 'bloody foreigner' and should 'fack off bak home'. I wish I knew more about it to comment on it. Does the British government recognise the Massacres? If not you should maybe make a petition or a lobby group demanding the British government to recognise what happened. So at least 50 Million Americans have German ancestors. Correction the highland clearances are NOT KNOWN of at ALL here. Let alone spoken of. I thought the Labour government was practically controlled by the Scots? That link you provided doesn't work. No it doesn't sound fair to me. But in Birmingham the University has this thing were you can join the university Naval unit, Cadet unit or Royal Airforce unit, its sounds really good you get training plus commision plus you get to travel around. But anyways the point is there is this area full af Asian Muslims and that is where the Cadet base is and the Cadets are not even allowed to fly the Union Jack because it will cause to many hassles amongst the locals. No it doesn't seem fair. But William Wallace maybe a national hero to the Scots but he might might be a villian to the English. Believe me I know what it feels like when your own people have been massacred and nothing has been done about. What do you think should be done about it?
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Post by littlepea on Oct 17, 2005 9:54:28 GMT -5
ok, our history seeing as it was the British Empire, not the English Empire (and regrettably, Scotland is a part of Britain too). i dunno if the British Gov. recognise the massacre in my home town, but i can tell you that i never heard about it until i heard some random person talk about it and then i looked into it for myself and found he was indeed telling the truth. people should be educated about it, the local schools should teach their pupils about it so that it's not forgotten. it should not be forgotten, that's all. the figure of 30 million is quite impressive considering Scotland is a nation with only 5 million residents of its own. the highland clearances is just one reason for this curiously figure. again, i am shocked that you have never heard of the highland clearances, it is a major part of British history. even if the Labour gov. is controlled by scots (which i only said in the past to piss you off ) most scots are not pro-independance, and most of the ones who are would rather support the SNP than the Labour Party. it can hardly be described as an informed choice, however, when we have the government lying to us for over 30 years about how we could never survive on our own when the fact of the matter is that we could ... you are right, that link doesn't work, try this one: linkwhether wallace is seen as a villain in england is irrelevant seeing as they were celebrating in Scotland ... what should be done about it? would revolution be too much to ask? probably ... the government should stop lying to people, the media should start reporting the anti-scottish stuff that goes on and start making a big deal out of it (not just newspapers but tv programmes and films too). William Wallace is known the world over because of Braveheart - ok it may not be historically accurate but it shows why he's seen as such a hero in Scotland. there have also been films and tonnes of tv programmes about the shít that's gone in Ireland at the hands of the british and this has helped to prevent it all being forgotten, but you have to search long and hard in the deepest, darkest history books before you read anything about the small-scale massacres in parts of Scotland ... schools should teach children about all of their local history, not just the pro-british stuff. in my primary school we were taught about how our town was a famous merchant and ship-building town and how at one stage 2/3s of all ships on the sea were built on the Clyde. they never mentioned that it was used as a port to export highlanders to the New World during the Clearances or the 1820 massacre. this would be a start, but the british government seems intent on preventing the memory of this sort of stuff in case it turns people sympathetic towards nationalism ...
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Post by cenk on Oct 17, 2005 11:03:12 GMT -5
For a Start the link still doesn't work.
I think 30 Million is grossly exagerated. I can't find anything near that Figure. The highest number I found is, more than 13 million (Scots) in North America and a large population in Australia.
I dont think the highland clearances are a major part of British history how many people even died or were deported?
A revolution would be Scotlands final downfall. Trust me I think your just paranoid there is no Anti-Scottish propaganda in the media. There is nothing bad reported in Scotland unless something bad has happened in Scotland (e.g. Dunblane Massacre).
In my School we didn't always learn pro-British stuff, unless you count Slavery and Sir Douglas Haig, the 'Butcher of the Somme'. In fact Douglas Haig the incompetant general was a Scot his incompetance led to the deaths of 100,000's of British solders during world war one (20,000 dead on the first day).
I also learned about my local history the battle of Barnet during the wars of the roses is in my local area. Margaret Thatcher also came from my area (although that not something to be proud of, or is it?).
Oh its our history first of all England tried to eradicate my nation off the face of this earth during world war one. Now I should face upto English crimes against humanity.
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Post by dianaholberg on Oct 17, 2005 11:16:02 GMT -5
Click the first link littlepea posted and delete the "%20%" out of it...
Or... cut and paste the entire second link and do the same thing.
I think the link's too long for this board to handle without breaking it up with a space, and the space becomes "%20%".
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Post by cenk on Oct 17, 2005 12:29:58 GMT -5
Yeah the first link works. In that article 2 points must be raised.
'The Stonehaven South councillor defended her actions, saying the town hall's Union flag had been replaced without permission.
So the Union Jack was removed without permission from the town hall. The was no right to put the Scotish falg up in the first place. You do realise that would have been seen as treason therefore punishable by death not so very long ago.
She said: "The Union flag was up for VJ Day and William Wallace Day is not until today.
The Union jack was up to celebrate VJ day which is Victory over Japan day (you in World war two). The William Wallace day was also not on VJ day. What that guy did was a criminal offence therefore the punishment set by the courts must be respected. Although if that was his first ever offence then 60 days would be extremely harsh.
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Post by littlepea on Oct 17, 2005 14:30:10 GMT -5
you talk so much shíte, cenk, so i'll keep this brief.
the 30 million figure is what i heard on the news when they told us about "Scotland Day" in the USA when they sent Jack McConnell (our 1st minister) across the pond with William Wallace's sword to raise the profile in the USA media for the event and they mentioned why it should be as big as St Patrick's day over there.
as for the flags - i said before that technically she may have been within her rights to change the flag back to the union jack, but come on, have a heart ... and going to jail for non-payment of a fine is always a bit unfair, imo.
the rest of the stuff you are unfit to comment on since you are not Scottish (and clearly you have a typical southern english attitude that all things north of london don't matter). just wait till the british government starts treating the english like it's treating the scots just now, but by that time we'll be so down-trodden that we won't even remember what the word "revolution" means ...
if you don't stand up for others' rights, there will be no-one left to stand up with you when your rights are being taken away ...
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