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Post by dianaholberg on Feb 22, 2006 9:45:05 GMT -5
What is it?
Polytheist recently commented that one has to know about something before one can ignore it. Thoughts?
My view is that it is true that one cannot be held responsible for things one doesn't know or can't understand. And yet, we say we are "ignorant" of these things -- because to say otherwise is to imply that it is not possible to know or understand them.
However, if one has the means by which to learn, and the ability to understand, I do not believe that person can be called "ignorant"... and that they will be accountable in the end for the extent to which they used their abilities to learn and understand what they could.
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Post by Mestemia on Feb 22, 2006 13:57:18 GMT -5
Actually, what I meant is that one has to know about something in order to choose to ignore it. Not sure if that is what I actually said in the other thread or not, but it is what I meant when I made that remark.
I believe that everybody is ignorant. My wife is ignorant when it comes to computers. I am ignorant when it comes to working on cars.
Ignorance is merely not knowing about something. How can anyone expect someone else to know something they were never taught?
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Post by teancum79 on Feb 22, 2006 14:46:32 GMT -5
I divide ignorance into two camps.
1. genuinely ignorant these people do not have knowledge because they have not had the opportunity to learn.
2. willfully ignorant these people have not learned because they have chosen to not learn.
One is an unavoidable part of life the other is a result of peoples choices.
P.S (I place my spelling skills in a 3rd camp, disability)
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Post by dianaholberg on Feb 22, 2006 20:26:07 GMT -5
LOL teancum... I agree with your camps Polytheist, I believe in this age of very heightened awareness, people have limited excuse for completely not knowing things. But when faced with something they don't know, it's their reaction that matters. Do they seek to learn, or do they act as though it's not important since they don't know about it already? Or do they just find arguments that will prevent them from having to discuss it at all?
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Post by Mestemia on Feb 22, 2006 22:57:05 GMT -5
I must say, that if nothing else, Diana, you make me rethink my views on a number of things.
I agree with teancum79.
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Post by littlepea on Feb 23, 2006 5:05:16 GMT -5
i would say that ignorance is the factual matter of whether someone knows something or not, like polytheist said. what diana is getting at about people's reaction to ignorance i would call wisdom and folly - wise people try and learn about what they don't know (and when it comes to philosophical matters they try and understand before they decide to agree or disagree), fools go out of their way not to learn. pure knowledge does not make one wise, pure ignorance does not make one a fool.
as a side note, when it comes to overall "greatness of mind", i would include 3 determining factors: intelligence, knowledge and wisdom. intelligence is your ability to think things through (like logic and rationality), knowledge is the learning of facts (like which team won the women's curling at the last winter olympics) and wisdom is how you use the intelligence and knowledge at your disposal. they all add up, but it's possible to be very intelligent and not know very much and also be a fool (eg. the maths professor who doesn't know where Scotland is and won't listen to anyone who voted democrat), and the same for the other 2, and while i would regard wisdom as the most important and knowledge as the least important when you take it to the extreme, they are all necessary in their own way to make up a great mind.
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Post by Mestemia on Feb 23, 2006 8:56:06 GMT -5
Like the bumper sticker says: A wise man is merely a fool with a good memory.
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Post by dianaholberg on Feb 23, 2006 10:40:33 GMT -5
littlepea, I would generally agree... but would add an essential ingredient: compassion. You would probably include this as part of wisdom, but I'm not so sure that's a good thing to do.
The wisest man may apply knowledge using his intelligence in a very just and equitable way, but still be a despot. Historically, those described as "great" knew compassion as well as justice.
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Post by littlepea on Feb 23, 2006 11:26:02 GMT -5
since i am now a philosopher and have invented my own theory, i'm going to do what all philosophers would do in my position when confronted with challenges - try to fit them somewhere into my theory even if it requires really abstract and seemingly illogical thinking if it's something that seems too true to be dismissed, otherwise just reject it therefore i reject polytheist's bumper sticker - it's a good bumper sticker but there's more to it than that (obviously ) and i will fit diana's suggestion into my theory by saying that greatness of mind is not the only factor in determining greatness of person, compassion would fit in somewhere else. determining when to be compassionate and when to be strict could be described as an act of the mind (ie. intelligence to calculate if it would be best overall, the knowledge of past experiences and what happened the last time someone was compassionate in this situation and the wisdom to do what's right), but actually feeling compassion can't be described as a mental process. a similar thing could be said of a sense of humour - it might require a certain amount of intelligence and knowledge to understand a joke but either you find something funny or you don't, it doesn't just depend on how great your mind is. if it did, that would mean that the man with the perfect mind would either find everything that's meant to be funny absolutely hilarious, or he would find nothing even remotely amusing at any time at all. frankly, i would want to be friends with neither of them.
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Post by Tara on Feb 23, 2006 13:12:36 GMT -5
I actually kinda agree with poly's sticker.
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Post by teancum79 on Feb 23, 2006 15:26:30 GMT -5
I'm going to have to differ on the bumper sticker.
A fool is someone who makes bad choices even when they know better. Often they have a good memory and they still do dumb stuff.
I think a wise person is one who makes the best decisions with the information they have.
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Post by Mestemia on Feb 23, 2006 15:55:48 GMT -5
littlepea, I would generally agree... but would add an essential ingredient: compassion. You would probably include this as part of wisdom, but I'm not so sure that's a good thing to do. The wisest man may apply knowledge using his intelligence in a very just and equitable way, but still be a despot. Historically, those described as "great" knew compassion as well as justice. It is my understanding that compassion , mercy, and justice are all intertwined. However one must also know the difference between justice and revenge. I believe that the line between the two is extremely fuzzy most of the time.
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Post by Mestemia on Feb 23, 2006 15:59:17 GMT -5
since i am now a philosopher and have invented my own theory, i'm going to do what all philosophers would do in my position when confronted with challenges - try to fit them somewhere into my theory even if it requires really abstract and seemingly illogical thinking if it's something that seems too true to be dismissed, otherwise just reject it *sings Jeopardy Theme* Of course there is more to it than that. But how would you get it all on a little bumper sticker so as not to have it so small you would need a magnifying glass to read it? Not to mention the opposite side of this spectrum. Revenge. Nor would I.
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Post by Mestemia on Feb 23, 2006 16:00:24 GMT -5
I'm going to have to differ on the bumper sticker. A fool is someone who makes bad choices even when they know better. Often they have a good memory and they still do dumb stuff. I think a wise person is one who makes the best decisions with the information they have. What if you cannot remember that information?
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Post by littlepea on Feb 23, 2006 16:15:11 GMT -5
I'm going to have to differ on the bumper sticker. A fool is someone who makes bad choices even when they know better. Often they have a good memory and they still do dumb stuff. I think a wise person is one who makes the best decisions with the information they have. yup, i agree, like the doctor who smokes 60 a day. Of course there is more to it than that. But how would you get it all on a little bumper sticker so as not to have it so small you would need a magnifying glass to read it? yeah i know, it's a good bumper sticker and it makes you think but it's not a very strong challenge to my theory or anything. by the way, has anyone heard anything like my theory before from a real philosopher? maybe it's quite obvious and nobody's bothered to write any literature on it, or maybe it's not and i should patent it ... anyone know?
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