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Post by Amalcas on Mar 10, 2009 19:29:01 GMT -5
Speaking as someone who has studied Latin, a language through which the biblical texts have passed, Latin cannot be translated into English. Nor, I suspect, can almost any language be translated into any other language. Here I am not just talking about idioms and cultural aspects, which can be explained (via informative footnotes, at the worst), but about how different languages express information through different syntactic structures and vocabulary. There does not really exist a correspondence between words in English and in Latin; to fully understand the meaning of certain sentences in Latin, it would require multiple translations read side by side, and even then it is poor substitution. Furthermore, the grammar is dramatically different; you simply can not preserve the same syntax, and entire layers of meaning are cut out by the English dependence on word order instead of case to express function. While I am not familiar with Arabic or Hebrew, I more than suspect similar problems exist.
The history of the word "Allah" is quite complicated, and very similar to that of "Jehovah" (or whatever term is the original term used by the Jews for God--I honestly don't know which it is). Allah was originally a god-figure in the Arab tradition, which worshipped a pantheon of numerous gods, similar to Greek traditions (actually, similar to most any early religion--Hellenism is just a well known example). Mohammad, however, claimed that only Allah was the One True God, and all the other worshipped deities were false; this runs parallel to Abraham's claim that Jehovah was the One True God, and Mohammand in fact identified Allah with Jehovah. The Muslim use of a special name for God then seems parallel to the Jewish uses of special names for God; that is, it seems a means of asserting that they are speaking not just about a "god," but the One True God, and not a means of differentiating Him from the "Christian" God, as Mohammad stated that Christ also spoke truth.
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Post by cenk on Mar 24, 2009 13:28:07 GMT -5
Wrong. Moon god? Is Jesus the Sun god then?
Wrong. Then why was he persecuted by people in his tribe when he called them to worship Allah. Why did he and the Muslims have to emigrate from his home town?
Wrong. How about the Jews who didnt convert to Christianity? How about those Orthodox Christians who didn't convert to Catholicism? How about those Catholics who didn't convert to Protestantism? How about those Hindus who didn't convert to Sikhism? How about those American Christians who didn't convert to Mormonism?
For a start the Crescent and Moon is not the the flag of all Islamic countries. Secondly the crescent and moon was not associated with Islam during Mohammed times. Thirdly the crescent and moon was associated with Turkic tribes in central Asia who held shamanistic beliefs. When they migrated westward they brought their symbol with them. Other Islamic nations later copied them.
Your sources about Islam seem like they were written by Christians trying to discredit Islam. I say this because what you have about Islam is only said on websites about Islam written by Christians.
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robl
Guide
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Posts: 185
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Post by robl on Mar 27, 2009 21:27:51 GMT -5
One thing that I can tell you is this. I do not believe in Allah. I refuse to call God by that name. And I can not with any honesty see any good in the religion of Islam. I have seen too much of it kill innocent people. I have seen the show of "prayer" on the side of the street 5 times a day. I have heard the loud call to prayer over the speakers from the mosques. I to be perfectly honest with you there is no convincing me of a religion that is so filled with hate. In America we dont really see what Islam is all about. But in the middle East it is rather clear. I have a little bit of emmotion tied to it I guess. When you have good friends killed by Muslems it kinda puts a bad taste in your mouth you know.
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Post by cenk on Mar 28, 2009 14:31:41 GMT -5
Allah is the Arabic word for God. I dont always say Allah I sometimes say God. Arabic speaking Christians and Jews also refer to God as Allah. No ones saying you have to call God Allah.
You are just focusing on the negatives. Christianity has had its violent days in the past. Christianity has also undergone a process of reformation so it has changed its tune over the years. You heard the call to prayer, I dont see why that makes the religion full of hate?
Well I'm sorry about the loss of some of your friends. I presume they were part of the occupying forces in Iraq and Afghanistan. You probably wouldn't want to hear my views of those conflicts.
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robl
Guide
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Posts: 185
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Post by robl on Mar 30, 2009 17:06:38 GMT -5
Im sorry I responded with a little bit of anger there. That was probably uncalled for. I do know that the Abrab speaking Christians refer to God as Aroub(meaning our Lord). I only know this because I once knew a Christian pastor from Sudan who fled Moslem persecution in Sudan and came ot America as a refugee after his parents were killed and his village was burnt to the ground because is was not a Moslem village but rather a Christian village. In church history class in Bible School we are learning about hte crusades. And this was during the middle ages. Most Christians call this period of time in history the dark ages. Because the true practice of Christianity was almost al together gone due to the Roman Catholic church. There were those few monks in monasteries that still strove to live a life of holiness. And though they went about it the wrong way, they knew no other way to do it but to join monasteries. Martin Luther was a monk. But the crusades were started because when the Turks took control of the Holy Land they refused the "Christian" pilgrims from entering into Jerusalem. This is what first insighted the crusades. It is a dark and shameful time in the history of the Christian church. The history of Islam on the other hand has never been peaceful. From its beginnings the religion spread through violence and war. Islam brought down the Eastern Roman Empire. Mohamed started out all rejected by his own people. But after being kicked out of Mecca he came back a few years later and conquered Mecca and took the city for his new religion. He set out for war against the infidels. After his death his predecessors called for an all out holy war against all infidels and unbelievers. In this holy war they were fierce and fought without fear. Now this is the true history. It is not slanted in one biased view or another. So we know that Mohamed is not anywhere prophesied in the Bible. And we know that the religion of Islam is heretical to the true Christian faith.
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Post by cenk on Mar 30, 2009 21:12:26 GMT -5
Im sorry I responded with a little bit of anger there. That was probably uncalled for. I do know that the Abrab speaking Christians refer to God as Aroub(meaning our Lord). I only know this because I once knew a Christian pastor from Sudan who fled Moslem persecution in Sudan and came ot America as a refugee after his parents were killed and his village was burnt to the ground because is was not a Moslem village but rather a Christian village. Well I thought the crusades started when the Turks invaded Anatolia. In Sudan. I know that in the current Darfur conflict Muslims also among the victims. But i guess your using that to suggest Islam is bad, etc... but I could bring up recent conflicts where the victims were Muslim (such as Kosovo, Bosnia, etc...) and the perpetrators were Christians. Then theres the Iraq war which shows that Christianity hasn't forgone its crusading past. In church history class in Bible School we are learning about hte crusades. And this was during the middle ages. Most Christians call this period of time in history the dark ages. Because the true practice of Christianity was almost al together gone due to the Roman Catholic church. There were those few monks in monasteries that still strove to live a life of holiness. And though they went about it the wrong way, they knew no other way to do it but to join monasteries. Martin Luther was a monk. But the crusades were started because when the Turks took control of the Holy Land they refused the "Christian" pilgrims from entering into Jerusalem. This is what first insighted the crusades. It is a dark and shameful time in the history of the Christian church. The history of Islam on the other hand has never been peaceful. From its beginnings the religion spread through violence and war. Islam brought down the Eastern Roman Empire. Mohamed started out all rejected by his own people. But after being kicked out of Mecca he came back a few years later and conquered Mecca and took the city for his new religion. He set out for war against the infidels. After his death his predecessors called for an all out holy war against all infidels and unbelievers. In this holy war they were fierce and fought without fear. It was the Turks who happened to be Muslim who brought down the Eastern Roman empire. In any case the Roman empire at one point persecuted Christians. No point in wasting my energies responding to your distortions and lies. Sounds like youve already made up your mind about Islam and the prophet Mohammed. Now this is the true history. It is not slanted in one biased view or another. So we know that Mohamed is not anywhere prophesied in the Bible. And we know that the religion of Islam is heretical to the true Christian faith. Yeah sure. In anycase this thread is about the bible prophecy being about the prophet Mohammed. Here is a link that compares Mohammed, Moses and Jesus: www.themodernreligion.com/prophet/bible_like_moses.html
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Post by cenk on Apr 1, 2009 10:26:39 GMT -5
Area of Comparison *Birth Moses - Usual Mohammed - Usual Jesus - Unusual
*Family Life Moses - Married, children Mohammed - Married, children Jesus - No marriage, no children
*Death Moses - Usual Mohammed - Usual Jesus - Unusual
*Career Moses - Prophet/Statesman Mohammed - Prophet/Statesman Jesus - Prophet
*Forced Emigration (in adulthood) Moses - To Median Mohammed - To Madinah Jesus - None
*Encounter with Enemies Moses - Hot pursuit Mohammed - Hot pursuit/Battles Jesus - No similar encounter
* Results of encounter Moses - Moral/Physical Victory Mohammed - Moral/Physical Victory Jesus - Moral Victory
* Writing down of Revelation Moses - In his Lifetime (Torah) Mohammed - In his Lifetime (Quran) Jesus - After him
* Nature of teachings Moses - Spiritual/Legal Mohammed - Spiritual/Legal Jesus - Mainly Spritual
* Acceptance of Leadership by his people Moses - Rejected then Accepted Mohammed - Rejected then Accepted Jesus - Rejected (by most Israelites)
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robl
Guide
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Posts: 185
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Post by robl on Sept 25, 2009 15:47:33 GMT -5
If its OK with you I would like to elaborat a little bit on this comparision of yours. And I would also like to remind you that though I may have some slanted biases against Islam(as has been made clear already I think)I mean no offense to you at all. Though I will never call you a brother(because outside of my biological family I only call other Christians brother or sister) I have no problem calling you friend.
Area of Comparison *Birth Moses - Usual Mohammed - Usual Jesus - Unusual
*Family Life Moses - Married, children Mohammed - Married, children Jesus - No marriage, no children
*Death Moses - Usual Mohammed - Usual Jesus - Unusual
*Career Moses - Prophet/Statesman Mohammed - Prophet/Statesman Jesus - Prophet/King/Priest(also the only one to ever hold all three of these pffices at the same time)
*Forced Emigration (in adulthood) Moses - To Median Mohammed - To Madinah Jesus - none(although he was asked to leave the Gaderenes when he cast out the devils from the lunitic man, and cast them into the swine and the swine ran themselves off the cliff into the water and drowned)
*Encounter with Enemies Moses - Hot pursuit Mohammed - Hot pursuit/Battles Jesus - gave himself willingly to be crucified by his enemies for the sins of mankind.
* Results of encounter Moses - Moral/Physical Victory Mohammed - Moral/Physical Victory Jesus - Moral Victory(also a physical vistory seeing as he is the only one of these three to have risen from the dead. Therefore he is called in the Holy Scriptures the First Born of the Dead) . * Writing down of Revelation Moses - In his Lifetime (Torah) Mohammed - In his Lifetime (Quran) Jesus - After him(New Testament)
* Nature of teachings Moses - Spiritual/Legal Mohammed - Spiritual/Legal Jesus - Mainly Spritual/and practical living
* Acceptance of Leadership by his people Moses - Rejected then Accepted Mohammed - Rejected then Accepted Jesus - Rejected (by most Israelites)/Accepted by many gentiles
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Post by calyrelf on Oct 9, 2009 11:42:57 GMT -5
I am often surprised that Christians and Jews see only other Christian or Jewish deaths, and react with anger toward Muslims. They do not see the thousands upon thousands of equally tragic muslim deaths that occur at the hands of both Christians and Jews.
When you say that you see no good that has ever come out of the muslim religion, that leads me to think that you have never really looked for it. The prejudice against muslims (and the reverse) that extremists exude is chilling.
History shows that Christianity has been at least as violent, in practice, as the muslim religion. Christians have villified many other peoples, including the American Indians, for being "heathen." It reminds me of a Carroll poem. never used now, that goes something like: Poor little Indian and Chinee, don't you wish that you were me?"
The mindset that "ours" is somehow better than "theirs" (that both sides employ) must be changed for there to be real progress in the world. We must accept the fact that other people have equally respectable beliefs to our own, and we must realize that they are, on the whole, no more violent than we are. We don't have to believe in what they believe in; we simply must treat their beliefs with equal respect, as viable possibilities on the road that leads to God.
The Christian and Muslim certainty in the belief that ONLY "their" believers, and no others, will get to heaven, must be changed. I guess, in effect, religion itself must change, must evolve into something that acknowledges the fact that they may not be 100% right about everything. I realize that there is little chance of that. It's sad.
I once heard an Episcopalian priest say, right in a sermon on Sunday morning, that we can't be certain that Buddhists don't have some truths about God that we don't have, and that it might be good to open our minds to the possibility that there are other truths out there, that we can bring into Christianity and expand its horizons. Within 3 months, the priest was out of a job.
If someone were to say that they have 100% of all the knowledge needed to study math, people would laugh. When people say that their religion provides 100% of all the knowledge needed to get to heaven and be with God, they wind up with a million followers or more.
Until we get to the point where people accept that others may also have some truths that are worth exploring, there will always be needless bloodshed. JMHO
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Post by cenk on Oct 13, 2009 6:15:48 GMT -5
If its OK with you I would like to elaborat a little bit on this comparision of yours. Yeah sure go ahead. And I would also like to remind you that though I may have some slanted biases against Islam(as has been made clear already I think)I mean no offense to you at all. Well I have some slightly views of Christianity and Judaism. Though I will never call you a brother(because outside of my biological family I only call other Christians brother or sister) I never expected otherwise. I have no problem calling you friend. Thats considerate of you. Hopefully we will have many discussions.
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Post by cenk on Oct 13, 2009 16:08:30 GMT -5
I am often surprised that Christians and Jews see only other Christian or Jewish deaths, and react with anger toward Muslims. They do not see the thousands upon thousands of equally tragic muslim deaths that occur at the hands of both Christians and Jews. Well to be fair there are many Muslims that only see Muslim deaths as tragic. That said however the deaths of Jews and Christians are only a drop in the ocean when compared to the Muslim deaths and if we look at the world today we can see that it is the Muslims who have their lands being occupied at the hands of the Christians and Jews (and others). Israel is occupying Palestine. Russians occupying the Muslims in Chechnia, Dagestan & Ingushetia, Indians in Kashmir, China in Uyghuristan, the 'coalition' occupying Afghanistan and Iraq. When you say that you see no good that has ever come out of the muslim religion, that leads me to think that you have never really looked for it. The prejudice against muslims (and the reverse) that extremists exude is chilling. This illogical fallacy is ironic because if you look at history you will see that it is the Muslims who have the oldest universities that are still continuous operation. The Muslims were the ones that reintroduced the concept of bathing to the Europeans when they were still living like the animals (still are in many cases). When the Muslims implemented the Sharia in Spain for over 700 years the Christians, Jews and Muslims lived and progressed in peace with each other, Al-Andalusia was the Golden Ages of Islam but also it was said to be the Golden Age of Judaism (Moses Maimonides). Islamic Spain had the first libraries, street lights. Muslims at that time contributed so much to the fields of mathematics, the sciences and the arts. Even modern scientific method was created by the Muslims. History shows that Christianity has been at least as violent, in practice, as the muslim religion. Christians have villified many other peoples, including the American Indians, for being "heathen." It reminds me of a Carroll poem. never used now, that goes something like: Poor little Indian and Chinee, don't you wish that you were me?" Exactly Christianity spread via the sword in Pagan Europe and in the Americas. The mindset that "ours" is somehow better than "theirs" (that both sides employ) must be changed for there to be real progress in the world. We must accept the fact that other people have equally respectable beliefs to our own, and we must realize that they are, on the whole, no more violent than we are. We don't have to believe in what they believe in; we simply must treat their beliefs with equal respect, as viable possibilities on the road that leads to God. The Christian and Muslim certainty in the belief that ONLY "their" believers, and no others, will get to heaven, must be changed. I guess, in effect, religion itself must change, must evolve into something that acknowledges the fact that they may not be 100% right about everything. I realize that there is little chance of that. It's sad. I'm sorry but why should the Muslims accept the falsehoods of Christianity and Judaism as being valid in the eyes of God. Some of their views are just contradictory to Islamic teachings. I don't even consider some Christian beliefs as being within the fold of Monotheism. If their beliefs are not even within the boundaries of Monotheism then I dont see why we should see these beliefs as being valid. Until we get to the point where people accept that others may also have some truths that are worth exploring, there will always be needless bloodshed. JMHO I'm sorry but I'm going to be blunt in regards the issue of the violence and bloodshed as the Muslims are getting fed up: As long as the oppression against the Muslims continue then I'm sorry to say this but we are only going to see more "acts of "terror", this is not my threat this is the message/warning of those so-called "terror" groups. The Western media and governments likes to label the innocent people who are merely defending their land and their sanctity from foreign occupation as terrorists. You place our scholars and clerics on most wanted lists, you deport them and imprison them. The west likes to violently spread democracy onto people who dont exactly want it (currently 1.3 million dead in Iraq since 2003 according to a survey by Lanset), this is the same death toll as over 433 9/11s. And you think we can just have peace when 10s of millions of Muslims are living under foreign occupation. The Muslims have been clear about this for a long time - if the non-Muslims continue to support the occupation of Muslim countries and continue to support the oppression of Muslims (this means supporting the governments doing the occupation, supporting their troops, supporting their foreign policy, supporting the dictators in the Muslim countries that were helped and placed there by the West) then we might see more retaliations from Muslims, if Muslims are attacked then they have a duty/obligation to defend themselves (Jihad). Why is it when the Muslims want to implement the Sharia 1000s of miles away from the West then they are suddenly a threat. If you fight us we will fight you back, the Muslims have fighters and activists from the Philippines in the East to Spain in the West from South Africa in the South to Russia in the north (basically the whole of the Old World) and the Muslims will never be defeated and our religion will never be changed like Judaism and then Christianity before us has. Muslims are one quarter of the world population (in a few decades this could become 1/3). We can even see in the CIA factbook which says in many places like Afghanistan 44.5% (or nearly 1/2) of the population is of the age of 14 or under, so we can see where the worlds future demographic growth is coming from, and I dont think occupying their land is in the best interest of current and future world peace. So in conclusion the Muslims will win the war on Terror/Islam, the Truth is on ourside, Demographics is on ourside and God is on ourside.
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Post by calyrelf on Nov 1, 2009 1:11:38 GMT -5
When you say that you see no good that has ever come out of the muslim religion, that leads me to think that you have never really looked for it. The prejudice against muslims (and the reverse) that extremists exude is chilling. quote] Your response to my quote: This illogical fallacy is ironic because if you look at history you will see that it is the Muslims who have the oldest universities that are still continuous operation. The Muslims were the ones that reintroduced the concept of bathing to the Europeans when they were still living like the animals (still are in many cases). When the Muslims implemented the Sharia in Spain for over 700 years the Christians, Jews and Muslims lived and progressed in peace with each other, Al-Andalusia was the Golden Ages of Islam but also it was said to be the Golden Age of Judaism (Moses Maimonides). Islamic Spain had the first libraries, street lights. Muslims at that time contributed so much to the fields of mathematics, the sciences and the arts. Even modern scientific method was created by the Muslims. My response to your response: You completely misunderstood what I said. In effect, I agreed with you that there was a lot of good to come out of the muslim culture. It was not an "illogical fallacy" to say that anyone who thinks that there is no good to come of it, has not studied it. Perhaps you need to read it over, to see what I actually wrote. As far as your quote: I'm sorry but why should the Muslims accept the falsehoods of Christianity and Judaism as being valid in the eyes of God. Some of their views are just contradictory to Islamic teachings. I don't even consider some Christian beliefs as being within the fold of Monotheism. If their beliefs are not even within the boundaries of Monotheism then I dont see why we should see these beliefs as being valid. My response: It is precisely this attitude, on both sides, that serves to escalate wars and bloodshed. Both sides have something of value, and something that is godly. No one people has a monopoly on truth. I'm sorry you can't see that.
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Post by cenk on Nov 12, 2009 19:36:14 GMT -5
My response to your response: You completely misunderstood what I said. In effect, I agreed with you that there was a lot of good to come out of the muslim culture. It was not an "illogical fallacy" to say that anyone who thinks that there is no good to come of it, has not studied it. Perhaps you need to read it over, to see what I actually wrote. I was just elaborating on your point by giving examples of good stuff has come from Islam. My response: It is precisely this attitude, on both sides, that serves to escalate wars and bloodshed. Both sides have something of value, and something that is godly. No one people has a monopoly on truth. I'm sorry you can't see that. I was just trying to make a point, Imagine if every Muslim held the same opinions as what I said, then what kind of situation would we be in. Imagine if over 1 billion people supported Al Qaeda and supported 9/11 style attacks against the west. I am for interfaith dialogue but I don't see why I should shy away from issues. I think its better to discuss and engage so that we can live in a peaceful world. However I don't for one second believe this 'war on terror' is good at all. It only strengthens the support of the groups who carry out these operations against the west receive. And the price we pay for so-called freedom is going to be dear. In Britain they are thinking about ID cards that will hold all our personal information, and the government has been restricting individual freedoms (like I'm sure the Patriot Act has over in the USA) for quite some time now. They want to turn our countries into big brother states. And why did they (USA) go into Iraq if Osama Bin Laden was in Afghanistan? And why haven't they caught him even though 9/11 happened 8 years ago? Why didn't they allocate enough resources to catch him? Meanwhile Afghanistan has been occupied for 8 years and Iraq has been occupied for 6 years. We have seen many incidents post 9/11 like Madrid (3/11) and London (7/7), and the 'terror' groups are constantly gaining support because of American and British foreign policy and their unfair overwhelming support of Israel (who has been occupying Palestinian land for 60 years) and absolutely no support for the innocent Palestinians who have 4.5 million refugees because of Israeli displacements. Did you realise the Americans bombed Afghanistan, Iraq and Sudan in 1998? Did you know this was the reason for 9/11? Do you realise that the USA is currently occupying Muslim lands? Half the dictatorial regimes in the Middle East are supported by the USA? Where is this peace you speak of? I can't see any peace, all I see is continuous acts of war and aggression committed against the Muslims (and others) by the USA and her allies. The USA needs to do a 180 degree turn in its foreign policy if we are going to see any kind of peace. ______________ Oh yeah the Lancet report on Iraqi casualties gave about half that 1.3 million death toll I stated in an earlier post comes from here
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