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Post by dianaholberg on Mar 31, 2006 10:55:17 GMT -5
Do you agree with this?
If it turns out that most of the problems with illegal drugs occur purely because they are illegal, then they must be legalized?
(Why would anyone agree with something they believe to be patently false?)
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Post by dianaholberg on Mar 31, 2006 11:02:00 GMT -5
Which is precisley why I left the conversation to begin with. Could have fooled me... looks like you're still here... The thread topic is "prostitution" and specifically "should prostitution be legalized". My answer is no, prostitution should not be legalized. My grounds are that there is nothing profitable in its legalization. I have shown this by posting my moral views, by showing the flaws in the logic used to support its legalization, and by posting actual statistics from actual studies showing how detrimental to society it is -- including the ACTUAL effects of its legalization in Victoria, Australia and in the Netherlands. You, on the other hand, have posted nothing other than your opinions on my argument and false accusations that I ignore non-existant evidence. Pony up... where is the evidence showing that ANYONE benefits from legalization of prostitution? Only you have posted this. I have repeatedly posted that this is not "my morality" and that it is objective, based on the words of our Lord.
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Post by littlepea on Mar 31, 2006 13:00:51 GMT -5
answer the question then i will respond
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Post by littlepea on Mar 31, 2006 18:03:16 GMT -5
ok, i'm too impatient to wait for you to reply so i'll post anyway, before we get side-tracked by you avoiding the question. Do you agree with this? If it turns out that most of the problems with illegal drugs occur purely because they are illegal, then they must be legalized? the difference between prostitution and illegal drugs is that the harmful effects of illegal drug use are definitively proven, for the most part, so we know for a fact that drug use is inherently bad. the same cannot be said of prostitution. to answer your question, legalisation of illegal drugs would ensure a clean and honest supply (which would be significantly less dangerous than current illegal supplies) and it would also cut the need for drug dealers, and therefore all the problems associated with that would be drastically reduced. if life would be better overall with the legalisation of certain (not necessarily all) currently illegal drugs, then why not legalise them? (and this is even with things which we know are inherently dangerous ... ) because i'm trying to weed out exactly why you are against the legalisation of prostitution. it doesn't matter what the reality is, just imagine that it were the case that life would be better with the legalisation of prostitution, would you still be against it? or would you still cling to some notion of "morality"? would you prefer that the criminal law sends the message "prostitution is bad" even if legalisation would actually make everyone happier and lead to a better life for everyone? here is my impression of the evidence you have presented so far (ironically it comes close to certain marxist arguments in places): first of all the prostitute's story of her miserable life in prostitution. this, at most, shows that some prositutes' lives are crap due to prostitution in its current form. legalisation could lead to better working conditions for her, make it easier for her to escape from prostitution if she didn't like it and even reduce the social stigma so that she wouldn't feel so ashamed of herself. apart from all that, i have heard of prostitutes who really enjoy their work, so why should they be forbidden from doing what they enjoy just because some women can't handle it? now the study of the effects of legalisation in those various areas. this, at most, shows that those attempts failed in those particular places at those particular times (this is where my argument is similar to marxists who still believe communism could work, despite its failures in the past). it does not mean that every attempt at legalisation will have the same effects. but please, before you address all that, could you answer my original question?
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Post by dianaholberg on Mar 31, 2006 20:07:39 GMT -5
littlepea, I'm beginning to wonder why you chose law as a profession, when it seems you would legalize everything, thus eliminating the need for lawyers... do you at least agree with this conclusion: if it turns out that most of the problems with prostitution occur purely because it is illegal, then it must be decriminalised. It is absolutely impossible for me to agree with this statement. There's your answer. I will do and say nothing to suggest that prostitution is acceptable in any way. This is true for anything that God originally deemed punishable by death. I am against the death penalty in developed countries, but we should NEVER call evil good, and good evil.
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Post by littlepea on Apr 1, 2006 6:26:14 GMT -5
well i can't force you to answer, but if you had any shred of understanding of what i've been saying then you wouldn't need to feel so squeamish about the subject. your inability to answer that question shows that you are completely unsuited to rational debate in this subject.
but you haven't been a complete waste space - at least you've shown the stance that a secular state should not take ... which gives me an idea for another topic, actually ...
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Post by dianaholberg on Apr 1, 2006 14:19:08 GMT -5
Thank the Lord we are not a "secular state" yet. You mistake faith for squeamishness. And I'm very sorry to see you stoop to Polytheist's tactics.
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Post by teancum79 on Apr 1, 2006 16:50:30 GMT -5
Your question about if legalization prostitution would make a better society is pointless. It would not it can not make a better society.
It undermines the most vital components of a society and could not make any society better.
This is like asking if I would oppose adding lethal doses of arsenic to the school lunch program if was safe?
it is not it can not be and no study or conclusion of a study would convince me that arsenic is healthy to consume.
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Post by dianaholberg on Apr 1, 2006 17:39:11 GMT -5
By the way, littlepea... I've devoted as much time to the essays you emailed as I care to. Most of your points seem to be taken directly from them. I'd be interested in knowing if you have any independent views on this subject.
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Post by littlepea on Apr 1, 2006 20:09:20 GMT -5
well, it's difficult for me to judge since i really don't know anything about it outside of what i read, but i'd say that if people would be better off with a legal version of prostitution available then we might as well legalise it. i don't agree with everything that those two authors say, but a lot of what i think is influenced by those types of essays. i wouldn't be too happy if my daughter wanted to become a prostitute in its current form, but if there were some legitimate way for her to do that with the greatest protection possible provided to her with the law behind her etc. then that would be better than nothing. i don't know what you mean, exactly, when you say, "polytheist's tactics", i was just trying to gain some insight into how vehemently you oppose prostitution, and i succeeded. since you will never support the legalisation of prostitution due to your religious beliefs, even if society would be better off with a legal form available, then there's not much point in me debating the issue with you, is there? Your question about if legalization prostitution would make a better society is pointless. It would not it can not make a better society. why not? how many of the problems, and to what extent can the problems associated with prostitution be attributed purely to the fact that it is illegal? only if prostitution is inherently evil can illegality be justified (a fact which has yet to be fully established), but if this is the case, how do you explain the fact that some women really enjoy working as a prostitute? prostitution is obviously a dangerous profession, but so are professions like policemen, firemen, soldiers, factory workers etc., so this alone isn't a reason for illegality. even in this situation you wouldn't punish someone who takes money for an illegal job, you would only punish the employer if something went wrong. i could go on but i feel as if i'm repeating myself, so feel free to read the rest of the topic up till now and post any further questions you have.
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Post by dianaholberg on Apr 1, 2006 20:50:48 GMT -5
well, it's difficult for me to judge since i really don't know anything about it outside of what i read, but i'd say that if people would be better off with a legal version of prostitution available then we might as well legalise it. i don't agree with everything that those two authors say, but a lot of what i think is influenced by those types of essays. Did you study any of the facts of the impact of prostitution on society, on families, on the prostitutes themselves? Why do you prefer unsubstantiated theories over studies of real people in real situations? Clearly you are not a parent. I meant lowering yourself to insults rather than sticking to the facts. If you will recall, I started this discussion by telling you that. Even before I was religious, I opposed prostitution on moral and factual grounds, so claiming that my views are directly tied to my religion is false. Your "if...then" statement is premised on an absolute falsehood. There are absolute wrongs in this world, and sexual immorality is one of them. Therefore, as teancum said, arsenic will never be good for one's health, and society will never be "better off" because of prostitution. I'm still awaiting that shred of evidence I requested -- from ANYONE. I'll take it in any form -- testimony from a wife who supports her husband's going to prostitutes... statistics showing that when prostitution entered an area, drug use and crime went down... a statement from a doctor saying that people in an area of prostitution are healthier than those in areas without... oh, just anything will do. Thanks in advance.
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Post by littlepea on Apr 1, 2006 22:50:19 GMT -5
i guess i was a bit unfriendly in my other post, but it just seemed that you'd been wasting my time all this while, and it still seems that way to an extent. why do you disagree with my statement about my daughter? it patently would be better than nothing to have a legal option available, at least from my point of view and probably from hers as well. i can't prove that legalisation of prostitution would be beneficial to society, but it wouldn't matter if i did because you would still be against it due to your moral beliefs, some of which are wholly irrational. i can guarantee that "sexual immorality" is in no way an absolute wrong in this world. the phrase itself is far too vague to be of any use: "sexual immorality" will mean different things in different cultures (it even means different things to different people within the same society), and i'm sure every culture has a concept of "sexual immorality", but only if it is the same concept all over the world can it be described as an absolute wrong, and it obviously isn't ("penis feeding", anyone?). Your "if...then" statement is premised on an absolute falsehood. i'm afraid that this statement is itself based on an absolute falsehood - the idea that sexual immorality is a normative concept. show me the evidence which proves that the sale of sexual services is harmful purely on its own (ie. the practice itself, without any external influences of social stigma, extortionate pimps and ponces, violence or rape or drug abuse etc.). the evidence you have presented so far shows that prostitution in its current social status and illegal state can be very harmful - i completely agree with you on this point, it is indisputable, the evidence backs this up ... but it does not show that the sale of sexual services is necessarily evil. even if it can be shown that it is inherently harmful to a certain degree there may be other reasons for legalising it. the legality of prostitution (which this topic is primarily about) is a quite separate issue from the concept of right or wrong. this might not be an obvious distinction, but it is true nevertheless (eg. even with illegal drugs, which have been proven to be very harmful, there is much debate even among expert legal scholars over whether they should nevertheless be legalised). even if prostitution itself is inherently harmful in some ways, it may still be beneficial to society as a whole to have a legal option available. hence my question: would you still be against prostitution if this were the case? (edited to clarify: this is not to say that prostitution itself would be beneficial to society, only that perhaps a society where some form of legal prostitution is available would in fact be better than a society where prostitution is completely outlawed) it's no use just saying, "but it's not so i can't answer", that's not the point. use your imagination. so what do you think about them?
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Post by Mestemia on Apr 2, 2006 0:55:25 GMT -5
Thank the Lord we are not a "secular state" yet. You mistake faith for squeamishness. And I'm very sorry to see you stoop to Polytheist's tactics. I gave back what I got. To bad you refuse to understand that.
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Post by dianaholberg on Apr 2, 2006 8:20:08 GMT -5
Thank the Lord we are not a "secular state" yet. You mistake faith for squeamishness. And I'm very sorry to see you stoop to Polytheist's tactics. I gave back what I got. To bad you refuse to understand that. Polytheist, you being a parent, I had higher hopes for your part in this discussion, since you should be able to sympathize with the fathers of prostitutes. Mothers have the most cherished roles in this world, but fathers have the most critical ones. Not only do they have the responsibility to protect their daughters, but they are the primary lawmakers and therefore have the responsibility to protect us all.
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Post by Mestemia on Apr 2, 2006 8:27:56 GMT -5
I gave back what I got. To bad you refuse to understand that. Polytheist, you being a parent, I had higher hopes for your part in this discussion, since you should be able to sympathize with the fathers of prostitutes. Mothers have the most cherished roles in this world, but fathers have the most critical ones. Not only do they have the responsibility to protect their daughters, but they are the primary lawmakers and therefore have the responsibility to protect us all. You seem to think that I am all for my daughters being prostitues. I am not. Being a father my job is to teach my children right from wrong. It is not to condemn them for doing things that I disapprove of. There are plenty of self rightous theists who will do that for them.
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