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Post by Sue on Nov 29, 2005 16:17:01 GMT -5
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholics_AnonymousHere are the steps: These are generalized versions of the twelve steps. Admission – We admitted we were powerless over problem — that our lives had become unmanageable. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to others with the same problem, and to practice these principles in all our affairs. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_step_treatment
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moonchain
Guide
It raises a fever of intense apathy.
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Post by moonchain on Nov 30, 2005 12:34:32 GMT -5
I've been mulling over this and have come to wonder how much government money goes into funding AA and have there been studies on conversions in AA?
From my experience, AA gets its main funding from religious institutions. My dad's churches always have AA and NA meetings held in them at the church's expense. From what the wikipedia article stated, it shows that the AA has a basis in Christianity, but can help those of any religion, just maybe not Atheists. Then again, I know someone who went from Wicca to Apathetic Agnostic who is in AA (and it has done wonders for him), but he remains as agnostic as ever.
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Post by Tara on Nov 30, 2005 15:39:20 GMT -5
I've always had a problem with these things. The one thing that ticks me off about these groups are that they are faith-based. What if, for some reason, one has an aversion to even the mention of God? What are you going to do? In some cases, I find it brain-washing. And the scenarios just remind me of the missionaries that go to jails to convert people. I's a clever tactic. But I always think that the non-religious approach is best. Not even spiritual. Just try to let the person see the world in a new light that doesn't require spirituality. If one eventually finds spirituallity to work, then so be it. But I don't think that should come out of the mouth of anyone willing to help unless the subject asks.
Otherwise, any other help that promotes positivity and reality, I am for.
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Post by teancum79 on Nov 30, 2005 15:48:23 GMT -5
Contrary to popular ACLU promoted belief freedom of religion does not forbid the government from recognizing a higher power. “In God we trust” is on the coins “under God” has been kicking around a lot as well. The religious views of the founding fathers differed from today’s main stream ideas and they differed from each other, but is was accepted that people believed in God and that was normal. To think that the 12 step program is a problem because it recognizes a higher power is absurd. The attempt by some to remove all references to God from all public places and all government actions is the unconstitutional establishment of atheism.
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Post by Tara on Nov 30, 2005 15:53:42 GMT -5
I don't believe so. I actually see it as being neutral. There are so many differeing beliefs with religion and references to higher power, that I simply can't see how else it can be done.
Are you saying that other religions should be allowed to form their own alcoholics anonymous groups as well and not face any flack from the other groups or anyone else?
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Post by teancum79 on Nov 30, 2005 17:36:22 GMT -5
AA as far as I understand it is a service to help people get away from a destructive habit. AA apparently works if another group can get the job done great. Personally I'm inclined to think that the reason why the higher power stuff is in there is because it does not work well with out it.
There was a stop smoking program that went around years back the guys claimed that if you followed his 14 steps you’d be smoke free in about a week. I’ve taught the program a few times when I was in Australia. The program works if very big IF people follow all the steps. In stop smoking program the guy said that only about 55% of the people who started were successful because they would not follow one or two of the steps they thought were not important. If the higher power stuff did not help you’d think some AA guys would have figured that out by now and made a new program.
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moonchain
Guide
It raises a fever of intense apathy.
Posts: 595
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Post by moonchain on Nov 30, 2005 18:20:10 GMT -5
Actually, teancum, I think its more the community support and sense of brotherhood, rather than the spirtual aspects. The spirituality has helped many, sure, but that doesn't account for the many hundreds who have been helped by AA without believing in God, including my aforementioned friend.
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Post by teancum79 on Nov 30, 2005 18:37:22 GMT -5
There is a lot to feeling united etc. I guess the question is if the 12 step program does not need any spiritual aspect and would be as effective (it is understood that some people can quit a major addiction with little or no help) are there any out there that are getting the job done as well or better?
I've not had much personal contact with AA or with a lot of people who need that kind of help. I figure if it works why rock the boat.
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moonchain
Guide
It raises a fever of intense apathy.
Posts: 595
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Post by moonchain on Nov 30, 2005 18:53:50 GMT -5
Huh.. did a Google search and found AA has lots of competition: www.soberforever.net/ - briefly mentions spirituality, but claims no religious connections (I'm guessing the spiritual aspect is optional as treatment), the website lists all these weird statistics on AA and why it doesn't work www.smartrecovery.org/ - an "alternative" to AA or NA that promotes psychological focuses Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism - a website that discusses what alcoholism is and what therapies (including non-spiritual non-12 step programs as well as AA) are available |
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Post by teancum79 on Dec 1, 2005 9:59:46 GMT -5
Interesting 90,000 (AA) vs. 250 (smart) meetings. It would be interesting to see how the different programs work in the long haul.
I guess we'd should use whatever works best.
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Post by Sue on Dec 1, 2005 16:31:20 GMT -5
What about when a judge orders a person to go to AA or go to prison? Do you think that is ok, considering the religious nature of the program?
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Post by teancum79 on Dec 1, 2005 16:36:49 GMT -5
I'm not one to support the twisting of arms to make people be religious because frankly it does not work. I guess what I'm worried about is hurting an effective program that has an acknowledgement, but does not seem to be pushing a particular set of beliefs just because a few people don’t like the government have any connection to God.
If someone has issues with a God like figure of any kind than they should be ordered into an alternative program or they can go to prison and dry out there.
I guess my point is that the government should not promote any one religion, but they should not discourage any either. (With exception made for those that just covers for illegal activity IE prostitution rings).
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moonchain
Guide
It raises a fever of intense apathy.
Posts: 595
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Post by moonchain on Dec 1, 2005 16:36:59 GMT -5
What about when a judge orders a person to go to AA or go to prison? Do you think that is ok, considering the religious nature of the program? ooo... that makes me wonder if people can ask if they can go to a different program or check themselves into a non-religious rehab center instead? I honestly don't think a judge would have a problem with that, but have there been any cases of such? |
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Post by Tara on Dec 1, 2005 17:02:49 GMT -5
I'm not one to support the twisting of arms to make people be religious because frankly it does not work. I guess what I'm worried about is hurting an effective program that has an acknowledgement... I think AA should be limited to the church. And if they wish to help people, it may be cool t have their services ready to be offered. But I don't think it's cool to just go up to someone and start preaching about God. |
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