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Post by dianaholberg on Jan 2, 2009 12:40:10 GMT -5
A few things:
First, I have yet to hear any stories about statues in churches falling over. So I fail to see the relevance of your story.
Second, we believe that the prohibition against idols (which is actually part of the First Commandment) refers to setting up gods for ourselves -- not to honoring the One True God and His children.
Third, Catholics do not "need" such things for worship. No statues are used in Mass, other than the crucifix -- a portrayal of Jesus Christs' death for our sins. But should we be stuck somewhere without even a crucifix, a priest could still conduct Mass.
Fourth, Catholics should not pray to idols of Buddha or Krishna or any other false god. Only to the Saints who are real people canonized (or in the process of canonization) in the Church. This examines the lives of the people to be sure they are indeed Saints, and miracles must have been attributed to them before they can be considered Saints. It is a very stringent process.
Basically, you are operating under misconceptions based on your personal observance of abuses. Abuses creep up all the time but they do not constitute the Catholic faith. When they become apparent, they are addressed and discontinued.
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robl
Guide
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Posts: 185
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Post by robl on Jan 2, 2009 14:23:44 GMT -5
Oh as far as that story goes I just happen to like that story in the Bible. And it just shows that power that God has over idols. I am not trying to offend you in any way shape or form.
Exodus 20:4-6 KJV Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
So that is the commandment in question here. He said thou shalt not make any image or any likeness of anything in heaven above or in the earth beneath. he says not to even bow yourself down to them. Nothing at all. Its pretty clear to me what this means. So I see where he says not to have any other gods before him. Not setting up any other gods. But does this not also forbid using images for honor. Does this not forbid images of any kind. Wether you just bow to them or pray to them. It seems to me as if God does not even want them made to begin with.
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Post by dianaholberg on Jan 2, 2009 17:34:33 GMT -5
First, notice the words "unto thee". The commandment is against setting these things up for ourselves -- not for God and His family. Also, flip over just a few pages in your Bible to Ex 26, which describes the making of the Ark of the Covenant. Notice where it says this: Ex 26:31-33
31 And thou shalt make a vail of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen of cunning work: with cherubims shall it be made: 32 And thou shalt hang it upon four pillars of shittim wood overlaid with gold: their hooks shall be of gold, upon the four sockets of silver. 33 And thou shalt hang up the vail under the taches, that thou mayest bring in thither within the vail the ark of the testimony: and the vail shall divide unto you between the holy place and the most holy. This describes the making of the veil which Christ rent in twain. Notice that it is made "with cherubims" even though the verses you quoted said not to make images of anything in heaven or on earth. So the commandment can't mean "no images at all" but rather "no images for yourselves". Similarly, statues of cherubims were constructed to sit at either end of the mercy seat (Ex 25:19). So not only were images of them used but also statues. Finally, if you flip further over to Numbers, read about the fiery serpent (Num 21:8-9). Not only is this an example of the people making a statue in the image of a creature, but they are instructed to "behold" (look to) the serpent to be healed from snakebite. Clearly the commandment you quoted is not intended to prohibit people from making any images or statues at all, but only those they would make for themselves. Catholic images and statues are made in honor of God for use in His worship. Also, you need to understand something more about Catholic belief. We believe that the Incarnation -- where God became man in Jesus Christ -- and Crucifixion -- His sacrifice -- forever fulfilled the Law which previously guided man in regard to the worship of God. That is why we do not offer the sacrifices called for in Exodus. (I assume you believe the same in this regard.) But further, Christ's Incarnation, life, death, and Resurrection forever transformed humankind. Jesus as the "last Adam" (1 Cor 15:45) opened the door so that humankind can walk in the purity and goodness with God that Adam and Eve were able to enjoy. Flesh itself is transformed into something made in God's image -- so it is His image we celebrate in the statues and images we make to honor Him and His children. I hope this helps in explaining how our beliefs differ. We just take the Incarnation very much to heart, believing it to be as significant an event as the Crucifixion or Resurrection. That is also why we put up creches at Christmastime -- a practice that many Christians participate in -- even those who otherwise have no statues or images.
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robl
Guide
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Posts: 185
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Post by robl on Jan 8, 2009 17:36:33 GMT -5
Clearly there was no bowing down to or praying to any of these images. They had there meanings to the people of course. But they were not considered God or worthy of bowing down to.
In regards to the snake in the wilderness. That was a prophesy fortelling hte coming messiah. Jesus fulfilled this. You can read about it in the gospel of John chatper 3. And even at that the people began worshipping the snake as if it had anything to do with their healing. Which it did not. It was all God. And in regards to the New Testament you can not find where images are used for anything. If you can show me and I will be happy to study it out.
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