Post by Mestemia on Nov 14, 2005 17:17:47 GMT -5
dianaholberg said:
Polytheist, there is not much in your post that is not merely anti-Catholic distortion, but I will attempt to respond with some grace.polytheist said:
Leading by example comes to mind.
The Church has centuries of Saints who lived lives of pious holiness, as well as those who pioneered in all of the noblest fields. Far more than any other organization that has ever existed, as a matter of fact.
I never claimed that they didn't.
You made that assumption all on your own.
You obviously pay no attention to the objective data in this matter.
You obviously have to make assumptions in order to make this fallace claim.
I never once said that Catholics are alone in this practice. I merely used the PPP as an example because it is the most popular example.
Approximately 4% of the 109,694 priests in the U.S.A. (1950-2002) were charged with abuse. Even the most liberal studies result in numbers no higher than 5%. (And, by the way, these numbers are comparable to the levels of abuse among Protestant ministers... so the truth is that this is not a Catholic problem but an American problem.)
Once again you make assumptions based upon your feelings of being attacked.
I know of several other denominations who have the same problem with loose handed preists as the Catholics. But I used the Catholic example because it is the most popular. No other reason.
Meanwhile, Catholics are the main group who were harmed by the abusers you are referencing, and Catholics are the main people who are seeing to it that this matter is addressed appropriately.
I disagree.
The example of extremely poor judgement on the part of those in charge shows a serious deviation from the scripture said leaders claim to hold so dear.
I wonder if you honestly think that Jesus would have done the same as those who decided to merely place the pedophile priests into positions where they would have "fresh meat". I personally do not think so. But I am likely dead wrong because I am not Christian.
Nice try but your attempt at minimizing the actual damage done is not working.
(Would that our Evangelical brethren step up to admit the problem in their ranks as well, and stop the unjust accusations instead of contributing to them.)
No doubt in my mind that they would, just like the Catholic Church, admit to the wrong doing when cornered.
If the Catholic Church was as honourable as you would like me to think it is, they would not have treid to blame Homosexuals of "infultrating the preisthood".
All of this, however, has very little to do with the subject at hand -- which is MARRIAGE.
Then stop asking for my opinion on something off topic.
Again I pose my question, in hopes of a more direct and constructive answer... what is it that we who are active should be doing that we are not doing?
Teach by example.
When you have so much corruption within your own walls how can you expect anyone outside to respect your beliefs that condem corruption?
The Church says one thing and then does another.
Like the saying goes: Mind what people do, not only what they say, for their actions can betray a lie.
No one I know of believes that marriage is nothing more than a legal contract. Do you believe that??? Does your wife???
Nice spin you put on it.
"Nothing More Than A Legal Contract"
Since I never said that, I have to wonder why you feel the need to create a strawman.
You attacked your strawman extemely well. But how about we get back to what was actually said and leave your poor attempt at the strawman tactic alone?
If it was nothing more than a legal contract, why do gays want to be called "married"? Why is a civil union -- which is truly just a legal contract -- not sufficient?
I Never said that marriage is 'nothing more than' a marriage contract.
Therefore your baited question will have to go unanswered.
It is not a legal battle.
You are flat out wrong. It is a legal battle. It is being fought in court rooms across the country.
Besides which: Morality is subjective.
It is a moral battle.
I disagree.
You can play all the games you want with the words, but the long and thshort of it is that you are wanting nothing more than impose your religious beliefs upon the whole population.
That is what the pilgrams left Britian for.
Those who do not learn from history...
Perhaps your 'powers to be' needs to pick and choose their battles a bit more wisely. That or just simply practice what they preach 24/7, instead of only when it suits their wants and desires.
Our "power" that IS went to His death on a cross. We aren't expected to win these battles... just to wave the banner of truth and live accordingly. He's already won them all, ultimately.
Already won?
Then why all the whining and crying over same sex marriage?
You have already won, right?
This arguement has so many holes in it that a sponge would be proud!
As for accusations of not practicing what we preach, that is a generalization that doesn't hold water with me.
Of course not.
If it held any water with you then you would have to deal with it.
So much easier to follow with tradition and just sweep it under the rug.
and before you claim they do not: Pedophile Preist Posse.
The Catholics I know are wonderful people, doing their best to live God-fearing lives. Who are you to ask more? I praise God that I can learn from their mistakes as well as my own.
I am the person who responded to your question.
Why do you feel the need to attempt to make this some sort of attack on Catholics when all I did was answer YOUR question.
If you do not want the answer, then don't ask the question.