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Post by dianaholberg on Aug 30, 2005 21:37:28 GMT -5
Got it. Rather like Christians and the "millenial kingdom".
You've mentioned that a couple of times. So what is your perspective of the next life?
Understood.
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Post by Tara on Aug 30, 2005 22:08:12 GMT -5
Shalom: Come on now, the kabbalah must go deeper than just your judgement of Madonna. She is as believer but so what. She is just one person.What i have heard about Kabbalah is that it is the mystical message of Judaism. Your thoughts on that? Freebird It is because Kabbalah 'goes deeper' that I point a finger at Madonna and say "foul". Shalom I have a quick question. I can understand how the defense is brought up about how superstars take up something and then everyone else wants in on it. But my question is, how do you know for sure that she isn't serious? Who's idea was it behind the ribbons? I think it might be good to start a new topic on Kabbalah in one of the Judaism sections in which you feel it fits best. (General Judaism?) I'd be interested in some of the 'deeper' teachings that are being discussed here.
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Post by freebird on Aug 30, 2005 23:32:18 GMT -5
Hello:
I think we are all aware of how the media portrays people, especially celebraties. How does anyone know what is in Madonna's heart and her connection to the God of her understanding? I do not need to defend her because I'm sure she can do that herself if need be.
I think a Kabbalah thread would be great. Dont now much about it except what i have read or heard LOL. If it has a mystical message I'm sure I would find it enlightening. Thanks Shalom
Freebird
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Shalom
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Hagbah: Raising of Torah. 'And this is the Torah which Moshe placed before the children of Israel'
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Post by Shalom on Aug 31, 2005 6:05:20 GMT -5
I adjusted a few of my earlier posts - to sort of "tone down" what might have seemed a bit "emotional" I agree with you that one should not judge what is in the heart of another. However, due to the medai and especially the Hollywood Rabbi, Kabbalah is being displayed as "voodoo" (again my opinion). That was the point I was making. I actually hold the Rabbi more accountable than Madonna. He should know for better! Shalom PS: I also just learned how to go to the "next page" - so this reply is properly positioned now where it should be.
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Shalom
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Post by Shalom on Aug 31, 2005 7:59:34 GMT -5
I think it might be good to start a new topic on Kabbalah in one of the Judaism sections in which you feel it fits best. (General Judaism?) I'd be interested in some of the 'deeper' teachings that are being discussed here. A thread under General would be fine. But I am not an expert in Kabbalah, nor would I feel comfortable in "teaching" Kabbalah. That said, give me sometime to pull together some links and recommendations (Books). Perhaps if we approache the topic using a common source, we could benefit from the discussion. I'll start the thread later today (hopefully). Thoughts? Shalom
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Post by dianaholberg on Aug 31, 2005 8:06:26 GMT -5
Shalom, did you see my question? It would be nice to get your answer, even if it belongs in another forum...
Thanks, Diana
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Shalom
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Post by Shalom on Aug 31, 2005 8:19:57 GMT -5
You've mentioned that a couple of times. So what is your perspective of the next life? Nothing like asking a difficult question! My idea of the 'next life' continues to change as I get closer to the time when I'll find out. Both Torah and Talmud (the "oral Torah") is a bit skimpy on the details. There are those who believe we know nothing until the resurrection. There are those who believe we go through a 'cleansing' process for up to a year, before we enter Gan Eden (Heaven). There are those who believe our spirit returns and joins with G-d (sort of like Nirvanah) and there are those who believe this life is it and there is nothing afterwards. Bottom line: I don't know, and G-d hasn't told us the details. I think that means I should trust Him and get on doing what I should be doing and not fret about it. Shalom PS: The "cleansing" process is found in our oral Torah (Talmud). Only the most evil people spend a full year being cleansed. That is why Jewish survivors only say the Mourners Kaddish for 11 months. To say it for a full 12 months would indicate they thought the desceased was 'really evil' I think it may be the origin of the idea of Purgatory for the Catholics? Not sure, but it would seem logical.
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Post by dianaholberg on Aug 31, 2005 12:00:36 GMT -5
Yes, I think so too. Most Catholic traditions and practices have their roots in Judaism. That picture you have of Hagbah as your avatar is very inspiring to me -- it is the Eucharist before Christ.
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Shalom
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Post by Shalom on Aug 31, 2005 13:05:54 GMT -5
Following the weekly Torah reading (which by the way is not read, but chanted according to a variety of ancient melodies - that must be sung from memory), the Hagbah lifts the Sefer Torah from the Bemah (podium) turns around to show the text to the congregation. He must ensure that at least three columns are exposed. The congregation responds in Hebrew with the words I quoted under the picture. At the first and last of the year (when the Torah portion is at either end of the scroll) lifting it can be a challenge depending upon the weight of the Sefer Torah.
Shalom
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Post by dianaholberg on Aug 31, 2005 13:15:35 GMT -5
It is similar to the reading of the Word in Mass... but different too. The Gospel book is elevated as it is brought to the podium, and the congregation stands and sings, "Alleluia". The priest chants words (I wonder if the melodies are similar?) and the congregation responds. At the conclusion of the reading, there is more chanting and another response. But of course the reading of Scripture is separate from Eucharist... also elevated.
What do you call your services for the weekly Torah reading? I only remember my friends saying they were "going to Temple"...
Oh, and is incense used?
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Shalom
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Post by Shalom on Aug 31, 2005 14:17:30 GMT -5
The priest chants words (I wonder if the melodies are similar? I've heard Gregorian Chant - no the melodies are not the same. The melodies used when chanting Torah go back at least before the Common Era. Eventually they were written down. The writing (notation) is called Trope. Each trope notation has its own name. The various sounds let the listener know such things as 'is the subject matter changing? Are we at the end of the sentence?'. The purpose of chanting is also to allow the audience to hear each word. Remember, in ancient time there were no loud speakers. And in Orthodox service there are no microphones used on the Sabbath. Hebrew as you may know, has no vowels, but is sometimes written with dots to help the reader. Trope is then added to the text (not the written Torah, but a book version) and one must memorize the "notes" as written for the letters. If you would like to see this, and hear a Sephardic Trope, go to bible.ort.org. Click on English, then on Torah. Each weekly parsha is there, presented as in Torah (black lettering), and also with vowel notations and Trope (multicoloured). Click on the 'speaker icon' an you'll hear the cantor. Any adult Jew may chant Torah (not just the Rabbi or the Cantor). In Orthodox communities, only men are allowed, in most conservative, women are allowed, and in Reform, they most certainly are allowed. There is always someone with a copy of the Trope, to assist or correct if the person misses a note. This person is called the "Gabbai". Each weekly portion (Parshah) is divided into 7 readings. At the start and end of each reading another person is called to the Bemah to say the Torah blessings. There are 5 services every Shabbat. The first starting on Friday evening - (our days start at sundown) and the last (called Havdallah) on Saturday night (end of Shabbat). The service when Torah is read is called "Torah Service". Most Jewish families will perform some of the services at home - and attend the Torah Service at their synagogue. There is no requirement to attend any weekly service. No, incense is only reserved for the Temple (in Jerusalem). It was part of 'the sacrifices' and they can only happen on the Mount - at the temple. BTW: "Going to temple" is a reform term. We conservatives and Orthodox say "Shul (school) or Synagogue". We reserve the word Temple for the only one that G-d commanded us to build. Hope I didn't give too much info. I tend to do that alot - please forgive. Shalom
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Post by dianaholberg on Aug 31, 2005 15:34:56 GMT -5
Never too much info for me... ;D I couldn't get that link to work, but after some searching I found the address: bible.ort.org/books/torahd5.aspThe intervals are similar, but you're right -- this is a lot more animated than the Latin chants at Mass (which, by the way, is somewhat different from Gregorian chant... I'll see if I can find a sample). [Edit: Found a prayer... it is posted here.]
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Post by Tara on Aug 31, 2005 18:51:18 GMT -5
Let's please keep this topic on Reform Judaism. You said your views are conservative Shalom? I assume that your views wouldn't exactly fit too well with the Reforms would it?
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Post by dianaholberg on Aug 31, 2005 18:57:24 GMT -5
Tara, I think you're right. As I re-read, more than half of this thread looks like it actually belongs in the Conservative forum.
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